...to mp3/wav and sharing it ???
the xclusivity ??? the price ??? the ethics ???
...so if you made hi bit files available for a trusted elite with a proven code of ethics at a higher price than most mp3 sites on the understanding that they purchase but undertake not to share, then wouldn't that be better for all and equate to DJ's not sharing, retaining exclusivity and value but always dependent on the ethics/morals of the buyer ???
Are we as scenesters not more honourable and conscious than the rest of uncouth, ignorant followers of 21st century electronica ???
I for one would pay higher for a new 'dubwave', agree not to share it in exchange for recieving it faster in a format that suits my needs...
...so if someone can do that by adding an mp3 shop to this forum and get the bigboy players to trial it then it'd be most appreciated
some rules might be...
only available to members of this forum
a certain number of posts needs to be achieved
a proven understanding of the music needs to be achieved
and an agreement of terms before any product is sold
...financially, the artist would pay for hosting, upload/delete tunes themselves and recieve 100% of the profit. Artists can then trade amongst other artists internationally for their material...
that's how i always thought dubplate.net should work so what the hell is going on with the construction of that place ???
does anyone remember a site few years ago run by a guy named kodeine called thednb.com, I think ??? It was pretty special cos everyone was on equal footing and natural selection by the public determined which tunes were the most popular...
...just a few random thoughts designed to insprie discussion and by no means a complete framework but a good start don't you think ???
if not why not and feel free to add any other suggestions ???
as you were...
What stops a DJ from ripping vinyl ???
What stops a DJ from ripping vinyl ???
c/- DEPT of HELL SCIENCE
This is irrelevant. www.trackitdown.net will be offering .wavs for the same price as mp3s soon. Hotflush will be on there. Piracy debate is the same whatever the format IMO. Either you accept the reality of the world, or you forego sales.
you don't get it do ya Paulie ???
so let me break it down for you some more...
...buying tunes of some faceless site means nothing to me and i would just as likely put em out on soulseek
buying them here from a community of like minded individuals with the ability to interact with the artists will do a hell of a lot more to control the flow of the music based on integrity and commitment to the scene and the place it was bought from...
...brand loyalty and preferential treatment, even at a more expensive price adds value to what we do, cos i think mp3's are too cheap and don't reflect the time invested in producing quality product
I'd rather a one stop, specialist, music genre shop and distribution network based around a forum than a whole bunch of disparate sites who i wouldn't trust as far as quality, security of transfer or payment of royalties to artists
with what i have suggested the artist would retain control of their tunes and recieve all the profit and everything will be centralised around a communications hub...
can you not see the relevence and the potential to differ from all other genres by getting in now at ground level ???
so let me break it down for you some more...
...buying tunes of some faceless site means nothing to me and i would just as likely put em out on soulseek
buying them here from a community of like minded individuals with the ability to interact with the artists will do a hell of a lot more to control the flow of the music based on integrity and commitment to the scene and the place it was bought from...
...brand loyalty and preferential treatment, even at a more expensive price adds value to what we do, cos i think mp3's are too cheap and don't reflect the time invested in producing quality product
I'd rather a one stop, specialist, music genre shop and distribution network based around a forum than a whole bunch of disparate sites who i wouldn't trust as far as quality, security of transfer or payment of royalties to artists
with what i have suggested the artist would retain control of their tunes and recieve all the profit and everything will be centralised around a communications hub...
can you not see the relevence and the potential to differ from all other genres by getting in now at ground level ???
c/- DEPT of HELL SCIENCE
sounds good.dubmugga wrote:you don't get it do ya Paulie ???
so let me break it down for you some more...
...buying tunes of some faceless site means nothing to me and i would just as likely put em out on soulseek
buying them here from a community of like minded individuals with the ability to interact with the artists will do a hell of a lot more to control the flow of the music based on integrity and commitment to the scene and the place it was bought from...
...brand loyalty and preferential treatment, even at a more expensive price adds value to what we do, cos i think mp3's are too cheap and don't reflect the time invested in producing quality product
I'd rather a one stop, specialist, music genre shop and distribution network based around a forum than a whole bunch of disparate sites who i wouldn't trust as far as quality, security of transfer or payment of royalties to artists
with what i have suggested the artist would retain control of their tunes and recieve all the profit and everything will be centralised around a communications hub...
can you not see the relevence and the potential to differ from all other genres by getting in now at ground level ???
The World is YOURZ
This is simply what most producers and label owners do already by sharing MP3s and mailing CDs, isn't it? There's just no money changing hands - the music, and/or the exposure it gets when played out is the currency itself.
All I see happening with some kind of members only filesharing service is a widening of dubplate culture - I thought you disliked the idea? Do you now want access to tunes which are unreleased, or are you looking for avenues via which you can sell your own music?
If it's the former, like I say people already share tunes so I don't see the need for any new infrastructure, and if it's sales you want, there's plenty of places to sell your wares nowadays....
No doubt I've missed the point, I await your characteristically blunt reply......
All I see happening with some kind of members only filesharing service is a widening of dubplate culture - I thought you disliked the idea? Do you now want access to tunes which are unreleased, or are you looking for avenues via which you can sell your own music?
If it's the former, like I say people already share tunes so I don't see the need for any new infrastructure, and if it's sales you want, there's plenty of places to sell your wares nowadays....
No doubt I've missed the point, I await your characteristically blunt reply......
by fuck you're a dumb tnuc thinking 
nah just kidding...
... the difference here is that it does open the exchange of "dubwaves" to a wider network based around a specialist forum where people buy tunes not just exchange them amongst elite circles or have to wait for months til they get a vinyl release
so yeah i want access to new tunes and a one stop specialist dubstep only place to sell
the only worry in the system is to established labels, distributors and other sites cos if this were the only place you could get dubstep by pullling all the dubstep catalogues of other sites I'm picking this place would explode and with artists in direct control of their product it removes the need for labels to act as interfaces for the public at large...
...it doesn't mean stop producing vinyl if that's your preferred format but i'm picking most bigboy producers exchange CDRs and play em out especially I'd imagine on pirate radio, so you can see the hypocrisy involved
the infrastructure you advocate is a relic of the 20th century london underground music scene that dubstep inherited form it's antecedents in electronica and is well past its use by date...
...the only ones resistant to change are the ones who have the most to lose and usually the last card they play is the cultural integrity and apppropriateness card, but if it's a wider audience they want with a level of control through loyalty and more interaction with their customers then someone suggest a better model
nah just kidding...
... the difference here is that it does open the exchange of "dubwaves" to a wider network based around a specialist forum where people buy tunes not just exchange them amongst elite circles or have to wait for months til they get a vinyl release
so yeah i want access to new tunes and a one stop specialist dubstep only place to sell
the only worry in the system is to established labels, distributors and other sites cos if this were the only place you could get dubstep by pullling all the dubstep catalogues of other sites I'm picking this place would explode and with artists in direct control of their product it removes the need for labels to act as interfaces for the public at large...
...it doesn't mean stop producing vinyl if that's your preferred format but i'm picking most bigboy producers exchange CDRs and play em out especially I'd imagine on pirate radio, so you can see the hypocrisy involved
the infrastructure you advocate is a relic of the 20th century london underground music scene that dubstep inherited form it's antecedents in electronica and is well past its use by date...
...the only ones resistant to change are the ones who have the most to lose and usually the last card they play is the cultural integrity and apppropriateness card, but if it's a wider audience they want with a level of control through loyalty and more interaction with their customers then someone suggest a better model
c/- DEPT of HELL SCIENCE
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andythetwig
- Posts: 424
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- Contact:
This is a good idea Dubway, for a laptop dj like myself.
In answer to the thread title, I don't rip & share for ethical reasons.
I'm sure the producers aren't too bothered by this, but I'm constantly frustrated when trying to get hold of music to play. It's difficult enough trying to promote dubstep to narrow-minded club-goers, without the stranglehold the producers impose from above as well. The dubplate system is localised, elitist, archaic, and disrespectful to fans and djs who would pay through the nose to get hold of their dubstep fix.
I'm sure if I was inside "the circle", and was being sent regular CDR demos, that I would feel differently!
It's really up to the producers, if they are happy with their 500-1000 fans, that's fine, but if they want 500,000 - 1000000, regardless of whether these fans have paid for the music or not,, something's got to give!
In answer to the thread title, I don't rip & share for ethical reasons.
I'm sure the producers aren't too bothered by this, but I'm constantly frustrated when trying to get hold of music to play. It's difficult enough trying to promote dubstep to narrow-minded club-goers, without the stranglehold the producers impose from above as well. The dubplate system is localised, elitist, archaic, and disrespectful to fans and djs who would pay through the nose to get hold of their dubstep fix.
I'm sure if I was inside "the circle", and was being sent regular CDR demos, that I would feel differently!
It's really up to the producers, if they are happy with their 500-1000 fans, that's fine, but if they want 500,000 - 1000000, regardless of whether these fans have paid for the music or not,, something's got to give!
I never did understand this kind of argument. Why should producers do favours for anyone. Isn't it enough to try and make the best music possible. Does not dubplate culture force people to innovate for themselves. The charge of elitism is blatant rubbish I think. Usually artists give music to who they know/trust etc. Just cos you are part of a scene and like someones music, does that give you any right over that persons music? Especially if you are just 'any old dj' playin to random crowds whereever.andythetwig wrote: It's difficult enough trying to promote dubstep to narrow-minded club-goers, without the stranglehold the producers impose from above as well. The dubplate system is localised, elitist, archaic, and disrespectful to fans and djs who would pay through the nose to get hold of their dubstep fix.
people always complained about this dubplate culture in jungle, but someone tell me, what harm did it do? The culture is now worldwide and record sales are strong in drum'n'bass? OK most of it is shit, but thats what happens when things become global. Does it have to be the case that quality drops?
maybe some people are just in too much of a rush to grow this scene. Record sales are not the be all and end all. Having a global dubstep culture might be the aim of people on the edges keen to be included in something exciting. But I reckon most artists who would be accused of elitism are actually just doing what they do, getting on with business. Do you own thing, build your own space and stop complaining about how what others who have done much more to build this thing, conduct themselves.
I mean, if I was a producer, and came on this forum and read some of the posts by someone such as dubmugga, I certainly wouldn't want to make life any easier for such an self-obsessed nonce, even if he was promoting my music. if you don't like the way other people do stuff, do it yourself.
I think the danger of for dubstep is that it get invaded en mass by drum'n'bass fans, who spend most of their time online, become detached from any real vibrant scene, and who drag it down the same cul de sac that their scene when into.
labels on here like hotflush, boka and a few others are releasing mp3's on or even before the vinyl release date now. all of the mp3 delivery sites are safe. none of them are exploiting artists. i honestly don't see what the big deal is.andythetwig wrote:I'm sure the producers aren't too bothered by this, but I'm constantly frustrated when trying to get hold of music to play. It's difficult enough trying to promote dubstep to narrow-minded club-goers, without the stranglehold the producers impose from above as well. The dubplate system is localised, elitist, archaic, and disrespectful to fans and djs who would pay through the nose to get hold of their dubstep fix.
if anything is to be learned by the dnb scene, which is at least 15X bigger and a decade older than dubstep, it is that controlling who and how tunes are given/sold is the only way for producers and labels to even recoup their initial costs.
if it's frustration you feel as a consumer/dj, waiting for months to get your hands on a tune, imagine how it feels to be a small label/producer trying to see even £50 profit on your labour of love. whats even more maddening, as we've all heard from the dnb drama over the years, is someone like teebee finding out that a person was ripping his tunes from dubplates, renaming the titles, and selling his music on mp3.com under a different name.
let's separate the two discussions in this thread, because mixing them up dilutes the most important and relevant issue, which is a centralized place to buy dubstep on mp3.
1. dubplate culture( it's circular logic trying to argue this. just accept it for what it is, because it's not going to change, regardless of what format the music is sold on.)
2. digital,cheap and safe music delivery on one site.
Agreed. I don't have problems with 1. and I would definitely be glad if 2. gets realized quickly.seckle wrote:let's separate the two discussions in this thread, because mixing them up dilutes the most important and relevant issue, which is a centralized place to buy dubstep on mp3.
1. dubplate culture( it's circular logic trying to argue this. just accept it for what it is, because it's not going to change, regardless of what format the music is sold on.)
2. digital,cheap and safe music delivery on one site.
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andythetwig
- Posts: 424
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- Location: right up dubmugga's ass
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yeah ok! fair point! To be honest, I've written to a lot of producers, and they have been, without fault, very friendly, trusting and giving, so my complaint is more theoretical than actual, given my principles: I don't play out for money, and yet I fork out a lot of cash for music at the first opportunity. All I ask is for the music to become easily obtainable! In that respect, I totally support Dubway's idea and would spend a fortune if it came about!geoff wrote:build your own space and stop complaining about how what others who have done much more to build this thing, conduct themselves.
Nice movePaulie wrote: www.trackitdown.net will be offering .wavs for the same price as mp3s soon. Hotflush will be on there.
fuck me geoff and here was me thinking you were a dumbfuck who couldn't string more than 5 syllables together...geoff wrote:I never did understand this kind of argument. Why should producers do favours for anyone. Isn't it enough to try and make the best music possible. Does not dubplate culture force people to innovate for themselves. The charge of elitism is blatant rubbish I think. Usually artists give music to who they know/trust etc. Just cos you are part of a scene and like someones music, does that give you any right over that persons music? Especially if you are just 'any old dj' playin to random crowds whereever.
people always complained about this dubplate culture in jungle, but someone tell me, what harm did it do? The culture is now worldwide and record sales are strong in drum'n'bass? OK most of it is shit, but thats what happens when things become global. Does it have to be the case that quality drops?
maybe some people are just in too much of a rush to grow this scene. Record sales are not the be all and end all. Having a global dubstep culture might be the aim of people on the edges keen to be included in something exciting. But I reckon most artists who would be accused of elitism are actually just doing what they do, getting on with business. Do you own thing, build your own space and stop complaining about how what others who have done much more to build this thing, conduct themselves.
I mean, if I was a producer, and came on this forum and read some of the posts by someone such as dubmugga, I certainly wouldn't want to make life any easier for such an self-obsessed nonce, even if he was promoting my music. if you don't like the way other people do stuff, do it yourself.
I think the danger of for dubstep is that it get invaded en mass by drum'n'bass fans, who spend most of their time online, become detached from any real vibrant scene, and who drag it down the same cul de sac that their scene when into.
...glad to see you can write complete sentences but you're still a dumbfuck
producers do favours for each other so why not the music buying public who actually buy their tunes and no it's not enough anymore to just make em...
"dubplate culture forces people to innovate" what ???...you mean like we're doing, by fuck there's that cleverness again !!!
you mention elitism as rubbish then belittle "any old dj? who i think you'll find are the ones that support the scene from the ground up by PAYING for tunes and amping them on forums and shit...fuck you're a twat !!!
what makes you think quality drops by going global ??? as if the quality of the london based stuff is any better than say what Dinesh in NY does or us in NZ, pull your head outta your ass man and just listen without your bullshit london centric cultural earmuffs on...
...if you ask me d'n'b dubplate culture killed conscious jungle and stifled the development of the music for years basically until all UK producers had finished ripping off the demo sounds they were recieving from abroad. Yeah, we used to do jungle and send out demos which to our mind got cloned by labels/producers who didn't even bother to respond. I can see the danger in that happening here with dubstep
i've already heard tunes which sound like us reworked form a few years ago and even more recently from a mix we put out a few months ago...
whats wrong with wanting to grow the scene faster??? that's how evolution works, think of this period in the development as the cambrian explosion, more diversity and mutations with natural selsection determining which becomes fit to survive. Either we collectively, intelligently design the system from the ground up now or just let it blindly follow the path we've seen other culturally based musical phenomenons go down before...
...and will you shut the fuck up about the "culture" bullshit it just doesn't wash anymore !!!...it's the last gasp of a dying scene to try and pull the cultural ownership thing, no one culture owns this sound !!!
I am trying to build a space here while innovating and offering solutions to a decade old problem. If producers shared their sounds more widely, faster you wouldn't get what the d'n'b shitheads did, that is hack and copy their puters. It's 2005 not 95 but no one seems to have learnt anything or tried to change anything in the interim especially not you UK lot...
...no one is ever gonna make it easy for anyone in this industry because it's not in anyones best interests to foster the competition and that's cool, hate me for being an obnoxious, arrogant dickhead but our music stands on it's own merits ignore it while you still can but you won't be able to for long
I know good shit when I hear it, always have, and been in this game long enough to know how it works from the inside. I'd say there is maybe only 4 or 5 producers who i would rate over us, I used to be all humble about our shit and it didn't get anywhere so now...well
I am doing it my way simply because i don't like the way others do it, maybe time wil prove me wrong, so what ??? I'll just go underground change names and start all over again got nothing to lose and it's actually quite fun, virtually reincarnating your net persona without all the karmic baggage you picked up in a previous net life
I don't see how acquiring d'n'b fans and re-educating them in a conscious vibe according to dubstep scene rules can be dangerous cos it's gonna happen anyway unless people actively work to supress the scene by keeping it underground and local...
...evolve or die
BTW seckle, adopting 2 eliminates 1, think about it
c/- DEPT of HELL SCIENCE
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rickyricardo
- Posts: 1137
- Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:36 pm
- Location: Baltimore, MD
Like geoff said, producers don't owe anyone shit. Since when does the creative process subjugate itself to consumer demand, and people who have piss all to do w/ making the tune suddenly have some sort of entitlement to it? That's ridiculous, IMO.
Dubmugga: You talk big game, man. Do you actually have anything to show for it?
Dubmugga: You talk big game, man. Do you actually have anything to show for it?
^^^check out coldtap in the other thread
...and yeah producers do owe their audience shit especially if they want people to buy it and justify their talents
would you go to a crap gig or buy a crap tune just cos you liked the producers ass ???
...the creative process is long done by the time a producer decides to put it in the public arena
...and yeah producers do owe their audience shit especially if they want people to buy it and justify their talents
would you go to a crap gig or buy a crap tune just cos you liked the producers ass ???
...the creative process is long done by the time a producer decides to put it in the public arena
c/- DEPT of HELL SCIENCE
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rickyricardo
- Posts: 1137
- Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:36 pm
- Location: Baltimore, MD
[quote="dubmugga"]
would you go to a crap gig or buy a crap tune just cos you liked the producers ass ???
...the creative process is long done by the time a producer decides to put it in the public arena[/quote]
That's not exactly the point I was trying to make. When you make a tune, isn't it wholly your creation, and shouldn't it be your pergogative who you give it to, and who you don't give it to? Sure, it sucks that dubplate culture is so exclusive, but it also involves elements of testing and quality control. Such is the case w/ any product you hope to bring to market one day. Shoe companies test their shoes with professional runners to make sure they hold up. Cars go through an assortment of tests before they are even allowed on the road. I don't see how this is much different than a producer who wants to keep his track on the low for a while and see what the crowd/radio responses are before bringing it out.
Re: online music distribution. I think that such a major development would actually intensify dubplate culture rather than whither it away. Without the presence of a DRM scheme that isn't immediatly laughable, artists who already aren't making that much money from their labors would have even more of a reason to keep their music offline than online. Forward-thinking is good and all that, but we have to wait for the technology to get there first.
would you go to a crap gig or buy a crap tune just cos you liked the producers ass ???
...the creative process is long done by the time a producer decides to put it in the public arena[/quote]
That's not exactly the point I was trying to make. When you make a tune, isn't it wholly your creation, and shouldn't it be your pergogative who you give it to, and who you don't give it to? Sure, it sucks that dubplate culture is so exclusive, but it also involves elements of testing and quality control. Such is the case w/ any product you hope to bring to market one day. Shoe companies test their shoes with professional runners to make sure they hold up. Cars go through an assortment of tests before they are even allowed on the road. I don't see how this is much different than a producer who wants to keep his track on the low for a while and see what the crowd/radio responses are before bringing it out.
Re: online music distribution. I think that such a major development would actually intensify dubplate culture rather than whither it away. Without the presence of a DRM scheme that isn't immediatly laughable, artists who already aren't making that much money from their labors would have even more of a reason to keep their music offline than online. Forward-thinking is good and all that, but we have to wait for the technology to get there first.
yeah i understand all that Ricky but as professionsal musicicans the whole point is to make money from your efforts and you could make more by getting stuff out there faster, lessen your overheads while retaining an increased measure of control ...
...you could also get better, faster feedback on stuff from the very people you are looking to sell it to in a community such as this by releasing snippets and garnering feedback in a forum attached one stop shop
Doing the 12'vinyl thing and promoing around certain gigs and radios is only going to attract the attention of fellow vinyl enthusiasts and specialist DJ's who are in the minority and don't make up the majority of the music buying public
besides once it's out there on the radio or on dub it's out there anyway and if producers aren't sure of a trak then don't put it out
for every trak we put in the public arena and think is the shit there are at least 5 or 10 others that we don't think are ready for public consumption
obviously we can't be certain what the public will like but we aren't afraid to put stuff out there and lessen the quality if it means we get better feedback and a greater understanding of the market
not every tune form any producer is gonna be killa
just what technology are you waiting for ??? audio encoded watermarks to prevent pirating ???
fuck it man, put the shit out there communicate with your audience and trust them...
...the whole point of the thread is to equate vinyl loyalty to 'dubwaves' add value while trying to prevent filesharing by involving your customers directly
look at DOA, the tunes they make available and replicate that here...
...it aint so hard to do
...you could also get better, faster feedback on stuff from the very people you are looking to sell it to in a community such as this by releasing snippets and garnering feedback in a forum attached one stop shop
Doing the 12'vinyl thing and promoing around certain gigs and radios is only going to attract the attention of fellow vinyl enthusiasts and specialist DJ's who are in the minority and don't make up the majority of the music buying public
besides once it's out there on the radio or on dub it's out there anyway and if producers aren't sure of a trak then don't put it out
for every trak we put in the public arena and think is the shit there are at least 5 or 10 others that we don't think are ready for public consumption
obviously we can't be certain what the public will like but we aren't afraid to put stuff out there and lessen the quality if it means we get better feedback and a greater understanding of the market
not every tune form any producer is gonna be killa
just what technology are you waiting for ??? audio encoded watermarks to prevent pirating ???
fuck it man, put the shit out there communicate with your audience and trust them...
...the whole point of the thread is to equate vinyl loyalty to 'dubwaves' add value while trying to prevent filesharing by involving your customers directly
look at DOA, the tunes they make available and replicate that here...
...it aint so hard to do
c/- DEPT of HELL SCIENCE
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ufo over easy
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