gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD

[serox]

Nah man, not for the whole mix. you ca get phase distortion and get the crossovers not relating right. Although you can use multi-band compression this is not a normal practice for a whole mix. And this is not just for massive, it can be for any sound source or synth

Sorry I understood it was for Massive/any synth;)

I didn't think anyone would do this over a whole mix but was just making sure.

Still not sure how you split/group the sound and combine in FL tho.

[macc]

Nah man, not for the whole mix. you ca get phase distortion and get the crossovers not relating right. Although you can use multi-band compression this is not a normal practice for a whole mix. And this is not just for massive, it can be for any sound source or synth

Just to clarify (I think this is what you meant but for anyone else reading);

Doing this is no different to what a MB comp does, although you run a greater risk of messing it up.

Always remember - splitting can be good, splitting can be bad!

[grooki]

I dont understand why people are low passing their subs???
it should be a sine wave or 808 kick sub and is near pure, you dont need any filtering. Maybe some eq to emphesize some parts, but all this is doing is raising the volume.
Also, I very rarely sidechain my sub to the kick. for me it sounds messy, and mostly use it for effect only to get a pumping motion on some elements.

When using a loud kick with a sub bass, get a kick that's tonally correct. you can get a kick sounding big, and deep but the body of it will peak at around 100-110hz. theirs no real reason to go lower because you gong to muddy you mix. Psycho-acoustics innit. Perceiving a sound differently than it is.
hope this helped.

So you mean that if you have a suitable sounding kick (for the sub) it will just sit on top, and still sound good. No high passing to clean the bottom end of the kick up?
All this helps, by the way

[paradigm_x]

the right sample >>> equing/filtering/compression.

[serox]

Depone/macc.

I often try to listen to records I have at the same levels to try match levels ok.

This record here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPQh5DUVpik

I am sure the bass is a higher dB than anything else and the kick sounds quite low (muddy) but still the tune sounds big and makes a great rumble.

Can you give me any info on what you can hear? It doesn't all sound very clear but I still like it. Would this be a bad tune to compare levels too?

[serox]

Well first off, im humbled to be compared with the likes of macc
Im really no expert. Hes the man tho.

Its all relative, my way of working wont work with some peoples techniques. When i give advice, dont take it as the whole truth. Every track will be approached differently, and therefore has different techniques implied.
But what I was saying about the kicks/snares frequency e.t.c.. is a tried and tested dnb trick I picked up on about 3 years ago, and not sure if it totally applies to dubstep.

That track sounds fine to me. The kick is low, but doesn't collide with the bass. But the best advice you can get is to trust your ears, and realize that every track should have a different approach. And maybe some voodoo Black magic??

I have bored Macc to death so its time to pester som1 else lol.

The bass sounds like it has the highest dB to me, is this defiantly not the case and should never be done?

Trusting my ears is good in some cases but not always. I am finding it hard to keep my sub/bass 2/3 dB lower than my kick because i like the sound and feel it gives. I will do it because I am told its better to do it but I want to krank it up still

[serox]

but it makes my house shakeeeeeeee




nah I hear you man, cheers.

[macc]

Maybe this is a problem with your monitoring then.
yeah, Sometimes having looooads of sub is perceived to be better because at the time your like "Woooooah fuck man! " badass. lots of bass. but at the end of the day, its not going to sound the same as a well balanced track.

Yeah man, couldn't agree more. Sounds like a monitoring and/or also a (sorry Serox!) n00b issue. I knoooowwww, it feels SO GOOD to turn the bass up loads, but you have to fight the urge. Listen to more pro tunes, keep at it. Spend a LOT of time focussing specifically JUST on the bass and kic bass interaction. Hold the 'image' in your mind of how the bass drops off/behaves in your room. Then impart that curve in your own stuff.


As it happens I have had a number of these lately (some from people here), where the sub level is *really really* high. It's a false economy or a red herring, or some other such cliche. It feels great at the time, but balancing the track in mastering means cutting a lot of sub out, exposing the upper harmonics of the bass. When you change the relationship between fundamental and harmonics (say, with an 808) like that, you are in effect changing the bass sound. It's almost exactly as if you were distorting it a bit more, when you think about it. I much prefer adding bass in during mastering than cutting it cos of that. Nobody - nobody - minds if the tune comes back fatter

(I seem to have made this exact post twice this week )

[mondays child]

This may be slightly off the topic, but what about 'doubling' up the tracks? this obviously affects the volume of the overall mix, but if used sensibly, (and i've seen this used in studios with live bands) it seems to add something to the sound.
Is this an acceptable technique to use, so long as the level of the mix is'nt overtly peaking?

[serox]

Yeah man, couldn't agree more. Sounds like a monitoring and/or also a (sorry Serox!) n00b issue. I knoooowwww, it feels SO GOOD to turn the bass up loads, but you have to fight the urge.

It is lower now. I have read the first 3 pages of this a few times now and my sub is 3 dB lower than the kick;)

[serox]

Thing is. these are rules of thumb. The point i was trying t make above is that YOU should be able to detect if the subs too loud/quiet. Thats why good monitoring is paramount! Dont go by your eyes and numbers the whole time. Do you think top producers on a spanking neve or ssl desk do that? No, they go by ear.
Sorry if that sounded like a bitch. It wasn't aimed directly at you.

Only rule I will follow is that my pure sine will be lower than my kick. I have been getting some ok results playing with a an 808 and another snappy kick on top of that.

But yeh I get you cheers.

[mondays child]

"Are you sure your not thinking of new york or parallel compression? There was a thread back about this. Basically you add a highly compressed copy of a track, lets say drums, slowly adding a teeny bit, and it adds a lot of thickness to its overall sound. I also found it fantastic when added to overhead drum mics.
Also you might be thinking of double tracking things like vocals (you know the double eminem vocal trick panned hard left/right)"




Yeah, that's it. Double tracking, can be done with instruments as well and doesn't necesarily need panning, can be in the centre of the stereo field or just panned slightly off the centre. I've used it myself and works well if you need to fatten sounds without boosting volume, however i'm not sure about the science of it and the relationship to other frequencies in a mix and stuff.
Is it a good technique or one to avoid??

[rob sparx]

balancing the track in mastering means cutting a lot of sub out, exposing the upper harmonics of the bass.

My bass hardly ever gets reduced at the mastering stage (1 track on the album had a 1db reduction) these days I'll send a tune back to be redone if I think the engineers rolled off the bass!