An interesting debate

dubstee · Post by **dubstee** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:59 pm

strye wrote:It would be cool if some dubplates get a very limited pressing and then a sale. Especially the ones that will never get a full release at the time that they should, in a way making them collectors items and worth a lot of money and respect for being able to pick them up in time.

So what you're saying is that top producers should press up a limited run of a dub that isn't coming out (e.g. 300 or so, enough to cover costs), just to let some anally retentive record collectors own a record that will subsequently be worth a lot of money, and enable a few bedroom djs to inexpertly mix said tune in warm up slots? I think I'm beginning to understand why quite a few dubplates don't see the light of day...

selrahc · Post by **selrahc** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:18 pm

the point about dj's having new stuff to play after a few months is a good one. for example, loads of the older mala bits would sell out almost instantly if they popped up on boomkat. mala doesn't play them out anymore, so what's the point in keeping them as dubplate only releases? i realise that logistically, it isn't ALWAYS feasible to put out a 12" every month, but then again, kromestar seems to manage to get at least one 12 into the shops a fortnight!

there should be a label dedicated to releasing tracks that no longer get played out, but never made it off dubplate and into shops.

djake · Post by **djake** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:23 pm

exclusive-ness.....makes the track seem like gold, and they usally are.

spencertron · Post by **spencertron** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:27 pm

i think it's because DJ's have a few ways of keeping things unique when playing (regardless of hyperediting/glitching/ableton input)...if they are not 'performing' as such...then their weapon of choice is a bunch of tunes that people will rarely be able to get their hands on at the same time as them...making their set that little bit more exclusive...

as pointed out above...the more accessible the music is the less people want to play it...

it's not a positive thought but something which i reckon goes on with people.

fairieswearboots · Post by **fairieswearboots** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:52 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRLfCYFn ... re=related

Dego quote at 8.10

seckle · Post by **seckle** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:18 pm

back in jamaica, soundsystems would clash each other on a friday night in neighboring parts of kingston and try and steal crowds from each other. certain dj's would be exclusive to certain parties, and the competitive atmosphere of dubplate culture was thus created. one sound trying to outdo another sound. this is critical to this scene as it was back in jamaica. friendly competition. it keeps the music always moving forward and experimental as well. producers pushing each other for the biggest crowd reaction. this is why dmz and fwd become centers of both inspiration and vibes , because you know that at either party, you're going to hear something you've never heard before...anywhere...not even on radio.

people cut tunes just for fwd and dmz sets! this was how it was years back and probably how it will remain. the competitive atmosphere is of course seen by some as elitist, but thats not the producers idea at all. its not like people sit there and go..hmmm....i'm not giving this tune to so and so because of xyz. its because they themselves want to live with the tune and let it have a life of its own before they consider even marketing it or letting others have it. the producers don't owe you anything! its their music! do you really think that coxsone dodd or tubby cared if the next man was upset about not being able to have their newly cut tunes?

itunes / p2p culture has totally warped people into this consumerist "i want it now" mentality. where can i click a button and have it right now......zzzzzzzzz.

separate art from entertainment. art has a life of its own.

bandshell · Post by **bandshell** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:31 pm

Not saying this is my view but has anyone thought that the producers who's tunes haven't come out, haven't come out because the producer in question doesn't want it released? Surely it's up to them when the tune comes out, to a certain extent (obviously labels decide the date once it's been agreed to be released). Might be a bit rude to keep hounding people for tunes to come out if they don't want it released eh?

This is just one of my views on it not my only one.

jonnyrebel · Post by **jonnyrebel** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:25 am

bandshell wrote:Not saying this is my view but has anyone thought that the producers who's tunes haven't come out, haven't come out because the producer in question doesn't want it released? Surely it's up to them when the tune comes out, to a certain extent (obviously labels decide the date once it's been agreed to be released). Might be a bit rude to keep hounding people for tunes to come out if they don't want it released eh?

This is just one of my views on it not my only one.

this does happen too. At the end of the day a lot of labels owners are artists themselves so the label can sometimes take a back seat, which im sure is frustrating for the producers involved and yea sometimes the tune might not be right for the artist who created it!

Interesting point from seckle too. I get the soundclash culture and elements of friendly competition as well as the "beauty" of hearing a fresh dubplate out but the rate that some of these producers produce I sometimes feel we as fans/consumers/music lovers dont have access to the amount of music we would like... Im in a fortunate position in that i have access to a lot of great new music but it sometimes feels like there is a bit of a them and us attitude towards people that simply want the music because, at the end of the day ITS QUALITY!!

Benga and kutz - il kut ya, thats another one lol

ed teach · Post by **ed teach** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:53 am

Good point from Seckle - this is first and foremost a dubplate culture and maintaining your exclusivity is a defining factor in Sound System. Of course there's a business element but no one thinks about releasing a track until they know it works in a dance (people going sick for it, rewinds and double / triple plays on the same night). MP3's have created a situation where a tonne of material is being released and distributed all over the world with little or no appropriate context and at no great cost or effort to the artist/distributor. Unforunateley we have to face facts. Vinyl is not going to get any cheaper and most new clubs are going to invest in CDJ's. The only thing you can do is slow the change so it happens in a less destructive way. Get Serato, use Wav's if you're on CD and keep buying the Vinyl. Nothing lasts forever, enjoy it while you're here.

All scenes ripple. At the start you have a high concentration of ideas focused over a very small area, after that as the circumference of effect grows the style becomes less definied - this is a natural consequence of a new idea integrating itself into those which already exist. At the start the important thing is to get the best sounds out in the best way possible but when the audience grows the quality of the medium will be watered down as a result because there's no way to cater for that growth any other way. Vinyl>CD>Mp3, a logical regression. When art is led by technology and money this is what you get.

Most of the producers you want to hear more from are not doing this to get rich or be some pious working class hero - they're trying to make an honest living from an honest product in an extremely turbulent time. The fact that you want to hear more from an artist is a good thing - it means you're both still engaged in a communication. Some tracks get held back because they're ahead of their time and their impact and effect would be wasted on an un-receptive audience who wasn't ready for the message being delivered. This does nothing but proove the integrity of the artist as someone who is in this for the right reason - to inform and educate people about their environment.

If you're a 100% consumer then your place in this equation means you're always going to be subject to the rules of the provider of what you consume. Conversely, if you rely completley on selling one particular style and image you will be a slave to the market that sustains you - and when it goes then so will you.

I won't try to define the middle way - that's your job. I will say however, this scene is (or was) being built from many different types of people who have something to do with music (more than just listening to it and getting off your face) and that has helped create one of the most refreshing and interesting periods the world has ever seen. We can't all start complaining when the audience grows and the sound gains popularity, all we can do is try to present the best work and maintain integrity.

Hibbie · Post by **Hibbie** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:19 pm

seckle wrote:back in jamaica, soundsystems would clash each other on a friday night in neighboring parts of kingston and try and steal crowds from each other. certain dj's would be exclusive to certain parties, and the competitive atmosphere of dubplate culture was thus created. one sound trying to outdo another sound. this is critical to this scene as it was back in jamaica. friendly competition. it keeps the music always moving forward and experimental as well. producers pushing each other for the biggest crowd reaction. this is why dmz and fwd become centers of both inspiration and vibes , because you know that at either party, you're going to hear something you've never heard before...anywhere...not even on radio.

people cut tunes just for fwd and dmz sets! this was how it was years back and probably how it will remain. the competitive atmosphere is of course seen by some as elitist, but thats not the producers idea at all. its not like people sit there and go..hmmm....i'm not giving this tune to so and so because of xyz. its because they themselves want to live with the tune and let it have a life of its own before they consider even marketing it or letting others have it. the producers don't owe you anything! its their music! do you really think that coxsone dodd or tubby cared if the next man was upset about not being able to have their newly cut tunes?

itunes / p2p culture has totally warped people into this consumerist "i want it now" mentality. where can i click a button and have it right now......zzzzzzzzz.

separate art from entertainment. art has a life of its own.

Seckle knows all!

ammo · Post by **ammo** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:09 am

i see the reasons for exclusivity, but some massive tunes stay exclusive for Ages then when they come out they're already rinsed. an example for me was the Guilty Remix by Plastician. still a great song but was caned before release (although as others have said, it may have been down to distrobution etc). kinda the same wit eastern jam too.
i do wana c big DJs drop brand new tunes, but i think they still can without keepin tracks for years. guess it depends on how many new tracks they make in a given amount of time.
plus keepin some tunes and never releasin them does give them that legendary power. but it is really annoying when as a fan it's one of your favourite tracks lol.
i think releasin the 'would be' dubplates as mp3s wud b a good idea if the producers are completely done wit them. like if the track is like 4 years old then y not eh?

dubstepper · Post by **dubstepper** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:21 am

teknyq wrote:I've been waiting for japan to come out on vinyl since i was in my mothers womb....

yes mate this!!!!!!!!! i love japan and if it ever gets a vinyl release which i think is very likely all be it probly 2years late i will still buy on release day and would never sell it

surface_tension · Post by **surface_tension** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:43 am

Paulie wrote:Harsh tops/mids shouldn't be so much of a problem if you are playing tracks off cd that have been mastered. And anyway, most mixers have a function called "eq" meaning the attentive DJ should be able head off unwanted harsh frequencies as required. I'm not suggesting that this makes up for the difference between a cd and a well-cut record but it can narrow the gap.

You're working based on the assumption that more than 10% of Dubstep DJ's actually know how to match a beat, let alone key matching or EQing... and then if they happen to know what those things are, let alone how to do them... well, then we've got that whole "attentive dj" caveat

surface_tension · Post by **surface_tension** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:49 am

seckle wrote:back in jamaica, soundsystems would clash each other on a friday night in neighboring parts of kingston and try and steal crowds from each other. certain dj's would be exclusive to certain parties, and the competitive atmosphere of dubplate culture was thus created. one sound trying to outdo another sound. this is critical to this scene as it was back in jamaica. friendly competition. it keeps the music always moving forward and experimental as well. producers pushing each other for the biggest crowd reaction. this is why dmz and fwd become centers of both inspiration and vibes , because you know that at either party, you're going to hear something you've never heard before...anywhere...not even on radio.

people cut tunes just for fwd and dmz sets! this was how it was years back and probably how it will remain. the competitive atmosphere is of course seen by some as elitist, but thats not the producers idea at all. its not like people sit there and go..hmmm....i'm not giving this tune to so and so because of xyz. its because they themselves want to live with the tune and let it have a life of its own before they consider even marketing it or letting others have it. the producers don't owe you anything! its their music! do you really think that coxsone dodd or tubby cared if the next man was upset about not being able to have their newly cut tunes?

itunes / p2p culture has totally warped people into this consumerist "i want it now" mentality. where can i click a button and have it right now......zzzzzzzzz.

separate art from entertainment. art has a life of its own.

true talk. I'd like to see more competition between nights, labels, distributors and DJ's at the same nights...

The opening DJ should be trying to upstage every other person on the lineup and build their name for being a badass... the DJ's who follow should try to slay the effort of the previous selector, and so on... I don't think Tubby was disrespecting Dub by upstaging the next man. More of that please.

That said, one of the best sets I've heard Joe Nice play was when he did a throwback to like 2005-2006 era and didn't play anything "new" or anything like that... fucking slew dem.

Be-1ne · Post by **Be-1ne** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:34 am

seckle wrote:itunes / p2p culture has totally warped people into this consumerist "i want it now" mentality. where can i click a button and have it right now......zzzzzzzzz.

separate art from entertainment. art has a life of its own.

Couldn't of put it better myself.!.!

dubwise_gamgee · Post by **dubwise_gamgee** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:20 am

as a dj you always want to have those crazy dubplates that the the producer and "big name" dj's are dropping but maybe think about it this way, maybe cutting and playing dubs ISN'T about a forthcoming release?

in many other musical styles (e.g. house) playing promo copies of a future release is also a "dubplate" thing but more for promotional reasons. in dubstep i think that it's mainly about being able to play some wild music than planning "oh this is supposed to be released in 5 months, so i'll start playing it soon so people get hype and buy loads when it gets out". if this were the case, there would be A LOT more DMZ, skream, benga, etc releases.

and true, the p2p mentality shows no tolerance if things can't be possessed immediately.

sometimes tunes are just tunes and not future releases.

deamonds · Post by **deamonds** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:05 am

All i know is i want the 2nd drop of 3rd choice (loefah remix)

give it me, now.

urbanite · Post by **urbanite** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:13 pm

Surface_Tension wrote:
Paulie wrote:Harsh tops/mids shouldn't be so much of a problem if you are playing tracks off cd that have been mastered. And anyway, most mixers have a function called "eq" meaning the attentive DJ should be able head off unwanted harsh frequencies as required. I'm not suggesting that this makes up for the difference between a cd and a well-cut record but it can narrow the gap.
You're working based on the assumption that more than 10% of Dubstep DJ's actually know how to match a beat, let alone key matching or EQing... and then if they happen to know what those things are, let alone how to do them... well, then we've got that whole "attentive dj" caveat

please do remember that usually the way things are set up, the dj doesn't actually hear exactly what the crowd hears... there are always monitoring issues, so sometimes you end up going on the assumption that everything sounds fine and just playing everything at 0, as best you can, while trying to beat match the next track to one you can't hear properly

then again as the Russians say "a bad dancer always blames his balls for getting in the way"

surface_tension · Post by **surface_tension** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:04 pm

urbanite wrote:
Surface_Tension wrote:
Paulie wrote:Harsh tops/mids shouldn't be so much of a problem if you are playing tracks off cd that have been mastered. And anyway, most mixers have a function called "eq" meaning the attentive DJ should be able head off unwanted harsh frequencies as required. I'm not suggesting that this makes up for the difference between a cd and a well-cut record but it can narrow the gap.
You're working based on the assumption that more than 10% of Dubstep DJ's actually know how to match a beat, let alone key matching or EQing... and then if they happen to know what those things are, let alone how to do them... well, then we've got that whole "attentive dj" caveat

please do remember that usually the way things are set up, the dj doesn't actually hear exactly what the crowd hears... there are always monitoring issues, so sometimes you end up going on the assumption that everything sounds fine and just playing everything at 0, as best you can, while trying to beat match the next track to one you can't hear properly

then again as the Russians say "a bad dancer always blames his balls for getting in the way"

Honestly though, there are still DJ's who go out there and work through those issues every single night and still bang out flawless or next to flawless sets every single night.

devious_n4ture · Post by **devious_n4ture** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:22 pm

Surface_Tension wrote:
Paulie wrote:Sasha should have gone to Transition tbf.
lol

anyway, I most agree with the OP... waiting forever is a bad look. That said, so is not waiting and losing your ass. There needs to be a balance. I would like to get to a place where I get a tune and release it within 3 months on vinyl, and have a bit of time to get it mastered, spend a month or two promoting the shit out of it, getting it pressed up, hearing the reaction... then releasing it. That does take time. I don't think the amount of time it takes now is rational.

Also, keep in mind that some producers make tunes so that only they and a few others can play them... that means most of the tunes you like and want to come out, probably won't ever come out. I don't like it anymore than you do, unless of course I have the tune myself

Yeah you say all this..... But hurry up and get Lounge and the Atrium remix out instead of keeping them for yourself..........

Only joking.... keep doing what you do....

An interesting debate

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