"Evolving" tracks. advice please!

s & m · Post by **s & m** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:13 am

hey hows it going everybody, really awesome stuff here in the production forum, i spend probably too much time here. anyways.. I'm really kind of stumped; i've got hardcore writers block and I feel I'm really not producing at the level I want to be producing at.

This is my main concern: I cannot seem to make a flowing, liquid like, attention grabbing track. I feel I cannot break out of "loop" mode. If you know what I mean. I feel the songs I create are one loop or pattern after another or layered together..I listen to dubs that are just constantly evolving and changing it almost overwhelms me when i compare it to my stuff. Thing is I just got my first midi controller, and have been messing with that. And i know about automations, but obviously am not using it properly or to its full potential. I know I have an ear for music, and I have the rhythm. I've been playing drums for 9 years and I feel like I have been gifted with music and it is my passion. so it is frustrating to me that I cannot produce what I hear in my head.

I know it must be an ass load of automations, etc.. But just generally could anybody give me some tips, advice, etc. on how to make a track that is continuous and evolving? It just seems crazy to me you must have a million different patterns or something! I dunno... I'm just not where I feel I should be at right now and am having a tough time sittin at the DAW...thanks for reading. I know this is broad but hope to gain some knowledge.

oh and by the way I use FL Studio.

lojik · Post by **lojik** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:32 am

When it comes to core sounds, you want them to be pretty consistent throughout the whole track so ways to create variations would be automating the cutoff the LFO speed (for example on a wobble track) so that the same bassline sounds different.

Also lots of different percussion parts can make tracks sound more interesting. For example I very rarely create percussion loops that are less than 16 bars long (even snare and kick). Even if you have an 8 bar kick/snare/hats loop you can change it up by putting a 16 bar layer of percussion that changes on the 2nd 8 bars to make the whole beat sound like its a 16 bar loop if you know what I mean?

Also rather than making a bit of the track and thinking right thats my verse, now I just need a chorus and stick them together, always work throguh the track listening all the way and creating new bits where you think it needs it.

In summary you pretty much answered it yourself when you said you have to create loads of different patterns, Some of my tracks have 4 different patterns just for one of the bass sounds.

s & m · Post by **s & m** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:37 am

Lojik I appreciate the advice.. 16 bar loops makes a lot of sense and is something i do not do consistently. I will definitely use that.

What about just general ambience? and crazy stabs/noises.. it just seems so random yet perfectly placed. I dont understand this... When producing would this be the last step? The after touch? how do you go about this phase of production? Thanks again I know this is a very broad question.

lojik · Post by **lojik** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:40 am

No problemo, yea stabs and little effects are usually added after the core track for me (unless its a sample that is specific to the sound of the track). Its all about just reall trying to find the tinyest usable sound in anything you hear, then sampling it and using it as part of the track. From what I've found simple little things like adding reverb to a clave hit or something can really stick out in a track and can be used as an effect, or creating drum fills by filtering them up through the fill etc.

Just try and plonk weird sounds in the track and edit/process them to fit in

s & m · Post by **s & m** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:46 am

Ok cool this makes a lot of sense. I guess I just gotta plug away at the comp!

deadly_habit · Post by **deadly_habit** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:48 am

working on the background is the biggest pain, seldom noticed, but what keeps interest (variation) going subconsciously a ot of times since these elements sit back in the mix

for me i'll often start with writing my stabs and such along with the beats so when you loop the track it doesn't seem so loopy

there's loads of different ways to do it and automation is just one of the many tools in the arsenal

personally whenever i'm looking to study how to evolve a track i just pop on some older orbital like the snivilization lp and analyze what's going on with the tunes

legend4ry · Post by **legend4ry** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:58 am

well - apart from the idea that its your mentality whats holding you back.

I tend to (on FL)..

Make a nice 16 bar loop, with all the synths, main bass and drums all in the same patten

get it JUST how I want it...

Then I go to the playlist..

Right click patten 1 on the playlist > Copy x3
Then make 3 variations.

Then I make just one drum track.. on its own patten and on the playlist rightclick the patten (say, patten 5) and click "split by channel" - if you dunno what it does.. it basically puts all the tracks in that patten into their own lane on the playlist so this is sick for costantly switching up drums.

And on the composition aspect - I find writing each part on its own - instead of to compliment something else is a lot more flowing - when it comes down to getting a final edit - you can be picky about what its about - but during the creative process nothing worse than caring more than creating.

so yeah blah blah blah - after making those 4 variations - you can see what one you like best, or use them all etc etc.. build intros/breakdowns from some of the core sounds and such..Don't overcomplicate things - look at hiphop.. simple but effective.

Something I find helps me out a lot is to get more than one element of the tune..

Say a padline and bassline
Keep it on loop and then add drums as you keep listening to the pad/drums and building them as you keep hearing the loop over and over...keep it still looping with the new drums think.> "what does it need?" - add more more and more.. then go for a tea and a bite to eat away from the studio - come back and think... "Right, what wrong?" - and if you find the loop annoying, surely it has hardly any replay value

- I dunno it might sound arrogant but all the tunes i finish I actually -do- like and would listen to all the time if it made by someone else cause its what I want to hear.. hehe

test_recordings · Post by **test_recordings** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:03 pm

Key changes get the flow going even if you use the same instrument (hell, a guitars a guitar for goodness sake and look what can be done with it!)

Sharmaji · Post by **Sharmaji** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:34 pm

Legendary wrote: nothing worse than caring more than creating.

that's a fantastic nugget of wisdom right there.

s & m · Post by **s & m** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 2:42 am

I appreciate all the advice greats tips all around especially that last little nugget ur right I just need to have fun with it

gravity · Post by **gravity** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:09 pm

dont just lay out a basic structure and then try and add things. you want to be working on your track in small segments from start to finish. sometimes i work a bar at a time. when you think something could do with changing or building up or whatever, sit there and try and come up with something to add or change. it takes a while to get into this mode, but once you do it becomes kind of instinctual and you'll know what you need to add or do at a certain time.

as for automation and stuff, dont just think of the obvious things like cutoff resonance, etc. try messing with envelopes, pitch, lfos, sends to reverbs and delays, delay times, feedback levels, sends to distortions or filters and stuff, layers of compression, stuff like that.

kapital · Post by **kapital** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:48 pm

pitch up and pitch down elements

tempo changes are also great.

grooki · Post by **grooki** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:02 am

hmmm... here's my 2 cents:

so many things make a track work well... things which I find are good are:
fx. A well placed fx sound, however random, can rejuvinate the same loop, even though it's been playing for ages. E.g. a nice fx or hit, maybe with delay (or basically anything) on the last snare of a bar really says "that's the END of that bar, here goes the new one!". THen even if the same thing keeps playing it feels like it's restarted. Drum variations can do this too, or a bass varation, anything really. It's amazing when a really simple track does this well, you realise the track has been pretty much the same for the past 5 minutes, but it's felt like it's moving the whole time..

Chords I think are great for doing that as well, what can be done with chords is incredible. If there is a chord change in the pads, for instance, even if the bass line stays the same it can sound totally different.
The there's things like (as you said) automating the filters etc on things, which is also good...
I guess it's just practice in the end... sorry if this was patronizing...maybe we should listen to a track of yours?

collige · Post by **collige** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:03 am

All of the above ideas are great, but all attention grabbing tracks have some sort of "hook" to them, be it a sick bassline, creative vocal sample, or catchy percussion part. Get that, and the rest comes easily.

r · Post by r » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:44 am

use Fx's more. Listen how they evolve in techno/house/tech-house tracks. That probably could help you out. That shit is liquid and stays groovin as fuck.

test_recordings · Post by **test_recordings** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:20 pm

Don't standardly sync the FX either! It just ends up locking in on a loop and going flat, roll it up and down

kapital · Post by **kapital** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:48 pm

grooki wrote:
Chords I think are great for doing that as well, what can be done with chords is incredible. If there is a chord change in the pads, for instance, even if the bass line stays the same it can sound totally different.

This is very true....it never ceases to amaze me how sound works in that way. Same bassline but totally new feel!

r · Post by r » Fri May 01, 2009 1:21 am

Kapital wrote:
grooki wrote:
Chords I think are great for doing that as well, what can be done with chords is incredible. If there is a chord change in the pads, for instance, even if the bass line stays the same it can sound totally different.
This is very true....it never ceases to amaze me how sound works in that way. Same bassline but totally new feel!

they call that chord progressions. It's like math

serox · Post by **serox** » Fri May 01, 2009 8:47 am

Legendary wrote: Say a padline and bassline
Keep it on loop and then add drums as you keep listening to the pad/drums and building them as you keep hearing the loop over and over...keep it still looping with the new drums think.> "what does it need?" - add more more and more.. then go for a tea and a bite to eat away from the studio - come back and think... "Right, what wrong?" - and if you find the loop annoying, surely it has hardly any replay value - I dunno it might sound arrogant but all the tunes i finish I actually -do- like and would listen to all the time if it made by someone else cause its what I want to hear.. hehe

This is a sure fire way to getting very bored of you're track and also ruin the flow I think.

"Evolving" tracks. advice please!

"Evolving" tracks. advice please!

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