Definition of "warmth"

collige · Post by **collige** » Sat May 02, 2009 6:58 pm

Everyone on the vinyl side of the digital vs. physical debate talks about how vinyl sounds "warmer" and better. But what exactly does pressing to vinyl do to the sound? I assume it has something to do with certain frequencies being dropped/boosted, but which ones?

I ask this because I want to help make my digital mixes sound like vinyl rips right off the bat (and possibly write an AU to do it if I can figure out how).

MidnightMassDubstep · Post by **MidnightMassDubstep** » Sat May 02, 2009 7:22 pm

I guess it means is sounds "smoother" and the top end is brought down, I would say. I think it just means it doesn't sound as "harsh" to your ears as digital.

futures_untold · Post by **futures_untold** » Sat May 02, 2009 7:36 pm

Digital sound is harsh because naughts and ones are always accurate.

For instance, if you look at a pulse wave with a constant tone and no modulations or effects, it should in theory be identical regardless of which part of the waveform you look at.

Analogue forms of synthesis rely on electrical current which always fluctuates, regardless of how it is conducted. Because of the fluctuations, there are innaccuracies that we percive, giving the sound more variation than a digital tone.

With vinyl, rumble is introduced with each vibration of the needle. Again, this adds character to the sound, making it 'fuller' than purely digital tones.

With analogue systems, one can feed more electricity through the system than they are normally designed for. This distorts a sound in ways we usually find pleasing. On a digital system, this can be replicated with 'overdrive' & 'saturation' distortion plugins.

If one were to 'overdrive' a digital signal louder than 0db, it would clip, creating a nasty screachy sound...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Or maybe its something completely different, and I'm chatting out my arse?

Can somebody else offer real knowledgeable advice on the matter?

arsenic · Post by **arsenic** » Sat May 02, 2009 7:54 pm

in the grand scheme of mixdowns regarding vinyl release, Pavillion pretty much got it right - a lot is rolled off to be able to work on a 12"

in regards to synths/etc...it really comes down to imperfection, as true analogue gear (esp tube driven and analog oscillator) don't lock to what they're doing, and thus fluctuate over time. In other words, digital is just too 'perfect'...which can lead to an overly processed and clinical sound. But, that's not to say that you can't make 'warm' sounding stuff with nothing but a daw and some processing effects if you know what you're doing.

deadly_habit · Post by **deadly_habit** » Sat May 02, 2009 8:25 pm

tape flutter and saturation <3

futures_untold · Post by **futures_untold** » Sat May 02, 2009 8:44 pm

lol at the amazing reply from Macc!

collige · Post by **collige** » Sat May 02, 2009 10:44 pm

arsenic wrote:But, that's not to say that you can't make 'warm' sounding stuff with nothing but a daw and some processing effects if you know what you're doing.

I don't know what I'm doing, that's why I made this thread.

Sharmaji · Post by **Sharmaji** » Sat May 02, 2009 10:51 pm

warmth is all about non-linear distortions.

'warmth' on vinyl is generally broken down to the fact that you can maintain a broader dynamic range while still having high rms values-- you have about 4db more to play with on a record than you do on a CD (ie, vinyl can work at +4 db, digital tops out at 0db). you also lose a good amount of info above 12kHz on vinyl-- less highs = more bass = 'warmth.'

Warmth in the analog chain generally has to do with running current through hi-end amplification systems, and the anomolies that they provide. Ringing transformers (Neve, API) or glowing vacuum tubes (UA610).

tape 'warmth' consists of some balance of compressed transients (when a hot level is recorded to tape), and the nice 'gelling' effect that comes when things are multitracked-- WELL--to really good quality tape on a well-maintained, high-quality machine.

so basically-- not an exact science at all.

if you want to check out a great non-exact plugin that fills in alot of the gaps, vintagewarmer is a great place to start.

knobgoblin · Post by **knobgoblin** » Sun May 03, 2009 12:33 am

A few things....The difference in 0dB/+4dB headroom is misunderstood most of the time. You don't actually have 4 more dB worth on vinyl. Those are two different scales. Digital is dB FS (Full Scale) and I don't remember off the top of my head right now what the other scale is called, but it relates to voltage. And the volume our ears hear as amplitude is measured in another completely different scale that deals with air pressure. You also have less headroom on vinyl because the noise floor is so high, but this also contributes to the perceived increase in RMS loudness, almost acting as a type of compression.
And on the topic of analog oscillators, it actually takes some engineering to keep two closely tuned oscillators powered from the same power supply to keep from syncing up, but you are right that a lot of the imperfections do come from fluctuating power supply and ambient temperature.

Sorry for the tech rant...

knobgoblin · Post by **knobgoblin** » Sun May 03, 2009 12:35 am

also, check out izotopes vinyl plugin. Does some nice things on drum tracks.

macc · Post by **macc** » Mon May 04, 2009 9:51 am

Don't let this thread die.... Bit short of time for my usual waffle at the minute but I'll think and jot some thoughts down. Just don't let me forget

Quite a lot of misconceptions in here that need looking at

kapital · Post by **kapital** » Mon May 04, 2009 2:17 pm

"Warmth" can be achieved through effects like Datube, Bitcrusher, Grungelizer etc. They gotta be used lightly though...I just this morning had to remove Grungelizer completely because it just made the overall sound more confusing, as there was already a lot going on in the first place.

slothrop · Post by **slothrop** » Mon May 04, 2009 2:26 pm

Some interesting points being made here re analogue circuitry etc, but I'd be interested to run a straw poll: which sounds warmer / more human / whatever:
a) Sleng Teng riddim by Prince Jammy
b) your choice of riddim by Rhythm and Sound

-dubson- · Post by **-dubson-** » Mon May 04, 2009 3:14 pm

the tech language in this thread

all i know is that vinyl sounds more physical and human, where as cd's/mp3's sound digital. Perhaps (bear in mind i know none of the technical stuff) its because that with vinyl u have a needle actually "picking" a sound up off a peice of record/ accetate, rather than it just scanning something and playing it.

thats probaly wrong no idea why i posted it lol

r · Post by r » Mon May 04, 2009 6:52 pm

to me warmth is in the software and hardware u use. To me it's the sidefx's of the machine/synth/fx itself that gives a certain presence.

future one · Post by **future one** » Tue May 05, 2009 5:02 am

In my opinion warmth is a byproduct of analogue distortion (second and third order harmonics), analogue noise and a softening of the high end.

Vintagewarmer never sounds warm to me. It just sounds ugly.

d+ · Post by d+ » Tue May 05, 2009 10:49 am

i dont use it anymore but when i was using vintage warmer i found it had a culmilative effect

ie. you use it on your drums selectivly
then you lightly use it on a few other sounds

the sum of the parts > the whole

i listened back to some dub techno tunes i made on an old daw which i used vwarmer with and i noticed they sounded much warmer than the beats i make in logic nowdays.

ps. thats not because i neglect 'warmth' in logic - but vintage warmer definitley has THAT effect, something which none of the plugins in logic had duplicated for me (so far - im still learning)

macc · Post by **macc** » Tue May 05, 2009 12:57 pm

Future One wrote: Vintagewarmer never sounds warm to me. It just sounds ugly.

+1

Definition of "warmth"

Definition of "warmth"

Who is online