DENMARK: A SAD SCENE

[adwok]

Furry muff. Care to elaborate?

[j-sh]

i love the way someone posts up a detailed and rational explanation for the whole thing and everyone completely ignores it and starts going OH NOES! THIS AM TEH SHOCKING!

maybe there were too many words i dunno.

Yeah, people just prefer to jump the gun and not bother looking into things like this.

The explanation matey gave ON PAGE 1 IN FULL DETAIL is perfectly acceptable imo.

Get off your high horses and realise that some people still need to kill to eat. Just because you can go to holland and barret and get your 2000% organic mung beans doesn't mean that other people can do the same.

Actually alot of energy, and threrefore money is wasted by the meat industry - its actually much more efficient, in an economic sense, to not eat meat.
The general process of how meat is produced is something like

(1) grow massive amounts of corn, grain, and soybeans (with all the required tilling, irrigation, crop dusters, and so on);

(2) transport the grain and soybeans to manufacturers of feed

(3) operate the feed mills

(4) transport the feed to the factory farms

(5) operate the factory farms;

(6) truck the animals to slaughter;

(7) operate the slaughterhouse

(8) transport the meat to processing plants

(9) operate the meat-processing plants

(10) transport the meat to grocery stores

(11) keep the meat refrigerated or frozen in the stores, until it's sold.

Every single stage involves heavy pollution, massive amounts of greenhouse gases, and massive amounts of energy - AND massive amounts of money


My point is this: by sustaining such a wasteful industry we put a massive burden on our own economy. So to argue that only the rich can afford to be vegetarians is actually completely false, as the meat industry is far more expensive to sustain than the vegetable one. Eating meat makes us all poorer, both by the economy and the impact it has on the environment that we, as taxpayers, pay to avoid.

Basically what im saying is that if people stopped eating meat, then perhaps there would be fewer people who had to kill for food out of necessity.

On another point, i dont think evaluating how best to lead your life is being 'on your high horse'

Please don't take this as a slate - im more interested in just havin a debate than slagging each other off.

Yeah, those are all good and roughly correct points, but trying not to sound too cliched, it's the system that's the problem.

We as a population have just grown too big and too lazy to do anything differently. We're outgrowing this planet so natures starting or will start to bite back soon enough.

For thousands of years we've had a completely sufficient and sustainable hunting and gathering system, but now all of a sudden we've got goods from all over the world, in abundance at prices that don't reflect the difficulties of obtaining them 2 minutes down the road at the local hyper-super-mega market.

I dont think you should try and shift the blame, its not 'the man' shovelling food in your mouth, i dont mean to be presumptious but if you have the internet and enough time to be chatting about dubstep i assume you're affluent enough to make decisions about what you eat.
Ultimately, im not tryin to have a go but this is the only way i can say it, its that attitude that is more of a problem than 'the system'.

just saying yeh but 'what can i, as an individual, do?' is just bollocks really - every act of liberation has started and continued on with individuals.
you're a perfect example of apathy you despise, and an enabler of the systems cause these things to happen.

Again, not trying to have a dig!

also a really interesting documentary on this whole matter is 'earthlings' its on google video if you want too watch it.

[NilsFG]

Furry muff. Care to elaborate?

Well, I'm against the abuse of animals, I hate people with fur etcetera.
But I just don't see the point why we shouldn't eat meat if it's our own nature. Man wasn't made to survive on vegetables only,
otherwise we would've never bothered to learn how to hunt.

Also a good steak can be soooo nice

[j-sh]

Furry muff. Care to elaborate?

Well, I'm against the abuse of animals, I hate people with fur etcetera.
But I just don't see the point why we shouldn't eat meat if it's our own nature. Man wasn't made to survive on vegetables only,
otherwise we would've never bothered to learn how to hunt.

Also a good steak can be soooo nice

Are human beings anatomically more similar to natural carnivores or to natural herbivores? Let’s find out….

* Intestinal tract length. Carnivorous animals have intestinal tracts that are 3-6x their body length, while herbivores have intestinal tracts 10-12x their body length. Human beings have the same intestinal tract ratio as herbivores.
* Stomach acidity. Carnivores’ stomachs are 20x more acidic than the stomachs of herbivores. Human stomach acidity matches that of herbivores.
* Saliva. The saliva of carnivores is acidic. The saliva of herbivores is alkaline, which helps pre-digest plant foods. Human saliva is alkaline.
* Shape of intestines. Carnivore bowels are smooth, shaped like a pipe, so meat passes through quickly — they don’t have bumps or pockets. Herbivore bowels are bumpy and pouch-like with lots of pockets, like a windy mountain road, so plant foods pass through slowly for optimal nutrient absorption. Human bowels have the same characteristics as those of herbivores.
* Fiber. Carnivores don’t require fiber to help move food through their short and smooth digestive tracts. Herbivores require dietary fiber to move food through their long and bumpy digestive tracts, to prevent the bowels from becoming clogged with rotting food. Humans have the same requirement as herbivores.
* Cholesterol. Cholesterol is not a problem for a carnivore’s digestive system. A carnivore such as a cat can handle a high-cholesterol diet without negative health consequences. A human cannot. Humans have zero dietary need for cholesterol because our bodies manufacture all we need. Cholesterol is only found in animal foods, never in plant foods. A plant-based diet is by definition cholesterol-free.
* Claws and teeth. Carnivores have claws, sharp front teeth capable of subduing prey, and no flat molars for chewing. Herbivores have no claws or sharp front teeth capable of subduing prey, but they have flat molars for chewing. Humans have the same characteristics as herbivores.

i copy and pasted that from an article becuase it articulates what i wanted to say better than i could have!
I agree that humans can handle meat every now and again, but its a common misconception that humans are naturally carnivorous.

[adwok]

Don't get me wrong, I still dream about stuffing a chicken with kranskies, wrapping it in bacon and roasting the lot. I don't think, however that killing and eating animals is essential to human survival though. I think we originally learnt how to hunt because we LIKED and WANTED meat. Not because we NEEDED it. Yes, it was at the time a quick and efficient way to provide ourselves and our families with nutrition and yes, our bodies we have evolved over the ages to somehow EXPECT meat, but hey it's 2009. Things change. We have the technology man. Not only can we SURVIVE without meat, we can THRIVE without it. In fact if you really step waaaay back and evaluate the situation as a whole, it's easy to understand that it is CRUCIAL for man's survival to not eat meat.

[NilsFG]

There are some good arguments in it, although I'm doubting that some of them are even correct (like the stomach part). Plus, if we were herbivores we would have had totally different teeth (I could bite the head of a chicken). But let's stay both happy and say we are omnivores (grrm).

Anyway meat is a source of nutrients that we need. There are enough stories of people who decide to become a vegetarian but get into problems because they don't get enough nutrients anymore. And again meat is totally delicious.

Don't get me wrong, I still dream about stuffing a chicken with kranskies, wrapping it in bacon and roasting the lot. I don't think, however that killing and eating animals is essential to human survival though. I think we originally learnt how to hunt because we LIKED and WANTED meat. Not because we NEEDED it. Yes, it was at the time a quick and efficient way to provide ourselves and our families with nutrition and yes, our bodies we have evolved over the ages to somehow EXPECT meat, but hey it's 2009. Things change. We have the technology man. Not only can we SURVIVE without meat, we can THRIVE without it. In fact if you really step waaaay back and evaluate the situation as a whole, it's easy to understand that it is CRUCIAL for man's survival to not eat meat.

Buy a chicken and bacon and keep yourself a meat-party every month.
The Liked-and-Wanted theory seems plausible but I think we it's more of a Liked-Needed-and-Wanted sort of thing. Big source of proteins.

[adwok]

Anyway meat is a source of nutrients that we need. There are enough stories of people who decide to become a vegetarian but get into problems because they don't get enough nutrients anymore.

Meat is A source, not the ONLY source. These people probably just cut meat out of diets and left it at that. The key is to be creative and seek information on how to do it properly. A good friend of mine (big it up Dexta soundboy extraordinaire) is a 2nd generation vego and has never knowingly eaten meat. He is 31 and is healthier than most. I dunno how those vegans do it, but healthy ones exist. Like I said we have the technology. Use it...

[NilsFG]

Anyway may I ask the reasons why you people became vegetarians?

Also never eaten meat in your whole life We'll, what's unknown can not be missed I guess.

[s & m]

WHALE WARS!!!

[adwok]

Anyway may I ask the reasons why you people became vegetarians?

Seeing as you asked politely, yes you may: 1st time, because it was cool and the ladies liked it. 2nd time I noticed after giving up the 1st time that my body just felt crappy in general. Still failed though. 3rd, current and last time I came home and found my girl watching that Earthlings video. Since then I've tried really really hard to find convincing evidence that I should go back to eating meat, but still can't do it. Oh wait, there was that time when...

[j-sh]

There's nothing essential in meat
the ONLY thing you cant from a vegan diet is vitamin b12, most vegans supplement those.
From a vegetarian diet you can get everything you need and more with ease.
Also adwok your observation about humanity needing to abstain from meat fro long term survival was very astute.

i dont mean to come off preachy if i am!

[adwok]

Who you calling a statue? Preacherman...

[de-fi]

I dont think you should try and shift the blame, its not 'the man' shovelling food in your mouth, i dont mean to be presumptious but if you have the internet and enough time to be chatting about dubstep i assume you're affluent enough to make decisions about what you eat.
Ultimately, im not tryin to have a go but this is the only way i can say it, its that attitude that is more of a problem than 'the system'.

just saying yeh but 'what can i, as an individual, do?' is just bollocks really - every act of liberation has started and continued on with individuals.
you're a perfect example of apathy you despise, and an enabler of the systems cause these things to happen.

Again, not trying to have a dig!

also a really interesting documentary on this whole matter is 'earthlings' its on google video if you want too watch it.

I still agree with you, and I have thought before about becoming vegetarian ONLY on the grounds of environmental damage / being more ecologically friendly (I'm an advocate of treating animals with respect and dignity and trying to minimise the harm, but I don't think it is morally wrong to eat animals)

I'm not really blaming the system as such. I'm blaming myself and others like me. It's our demand for artificially cheap prices and for more variety at more times throughout the year that is the problem.

A vegetarian and vegan diet is just as unnatural in many respects. Our climate does not naturally allow for the growth of a lot of different fruits and vegetables, yet we spend lots of money, and damage the environment a great deal by importing all these different products from all around the globe. Meat is definitely towards the worse end of the spectrum (for example the great amounts of rainforests that are cut down in order to create ranch space for cattle etc.), but fruit and vegetables are part of this problem.

We used to be a lot more self-sufficient living on a seasonal diet of whatever fruits, vegetables and meat could be sustainably produced within the local environment. Our diets would change year round, with more fruits and berries and the like around during the summer and autumn months, and then more of a reliance on meat and root vegetables during the winter. But now, we want everything good, all the time and that's not sustainable.

It's definitely something to think more about, and something that I definitely have thought about before like I say, but I don't think there is a simple 'no meat = nirvana' solution. But it's pretty pointless putting these thoughts across because nothing is going to change on that radical a level, and going vege or vegan is probably all we can do.

So then it comes down to, can I personally go without meat? And knowing that my non-participance would have absolutely NO effect long term am I willing to make that sacrifice.?I admire people who can make that committment, but i'm not sure I can just yet.

[adwok]

I admire people who can make that committment, but i'm not sure I can just yet.

Yes you are, gwan then what've you got to lose apart from your vegornity (sorry)?

[j-sh]

I dont think you should try and shift the blame, its not 'the man' shovelling food in your mouth, i dont mean to be presumptious but if you have the internet and enough time to be chatting about dubstep i assume you're affluent enough to make decisions about what you eat.
Ultimately, im not tryin to have a go but this is the only way i can say it, its that attitude that is more of a problem than 'the system'.

just saying yeh but 'what can i, as an individual, do?' is just bollocks really - every act of liberation has started and continued on with individuals.
you're a perfect example of apathy you despise, and an enabler of the systems cause these things to happen.

Again, not trying to have a dig!

also a really interesting documentary on this whole matter is 'earthlings' its on google video if you want too watch it.

I still agree with you, and I have thought before about becoming vegetarian ONLY on the grounds of environmental damage / being more ecologically friendly (I'm an advocate of treating animals with respect and dignity and trying to minimise the harm, but I don't think it is morally wrong to eat animals)

I'm not really blaming the system as such. I'm blaming myself and others like me. It's our demand for artificially cheap prices and for more variety at more times throughout the year that is the problem.

A vegetarian and vegan diet is just as unnatural in many respects. Our climate does not naturally allow for the growth of a lot of different fruits and vegetables, yet we spend lots of money, and damage the environment a great deal by importing all these different products from all around the globe. Meat is definitely towards the worse end of the spectrum (for example the great amounts of rainforests that are cut down in order to create ranch space for cattle etc.), but fruit and vegetables are part of this problem.

We used to be a lot more self-sufficient living on a seasonal diet of whatever fruits, vegetables and meat could be sustainably produced within the local environment. Our diets would change year round, with more fruits and berries and the like around during the summer and autumn months, and then more of a reliance on meat and root vegetables during the winter. But now, we want everything good, all the time and that's not sustainable.

It's definitely something to think more about, and something that I definitely have thought about before like I say, but I don't think there is a simple 'no meat = nirvana' solution. But it's pretty pointless putting these thoughts across because nothing is going to change on that radical a level, and going vege or vegan is probably all we can do.

So then it comes down to, can I personally go without meat? And knowing that my non-participance would have absolutely NO effect long term am I willing to make that sacrifice.?I admire people who can make that committment, but i'm not sure I can just yet.

fair play mate, i completely agree with everything you're saying.
Like you say, people's eating habits have a large impact on the environment both meat eaters and veggies.
I agree, its a big commitment. On a more sort of preference level, i would say try it for a week.
Honestly, again i know i run the risk of sounding like the high and mighty preacher, you will feel the difference. After about 7 days, most of the meat will be out of your system, youll notice you have mroe energy, sleep better, shit better and generally feel better. I lost a stone of fat whilst gaining muscle on a veggie diet, and found the energy to run about 2-3 miles a day when before i'd be lucky to do that in a year!

[de-fi]

I dont think you should try and shift the blame, its not 'the man' shovelling food in your mouth, i dont mean to be presumptious but if you have the internet and enough time to be chatting about dubstep i assume you're affluent enough to make decisions about what you eat.
Ultimately, im not tryin to have a go but this is the only way i can say it, its that attitude that is more of a problem than 'the system'.

just saying yeh but 'what can i, as an individual, do?' is just bollocks really - every act of liberation has started and continued on with individuals.
you're a perfect example of apathy you despise, and an enabler of the systems cause these things to happen.

Again, not trying to have a dig!

also a really interesting documentary on this whole matter is 'earthlings' its on google video if you want too watch it.

I still agree with you, and I have thought before about becoming vegetarian ONLY on the grounds of environmental damage / being more ecologically friendly (I'm an advocate of treating animals with respect and dignity and trying to minimise the harm, but I don't think it is morally wrong to eat animals)

I'm not really blaming the system as such. I'm blaming myself and others like me. It's our demand for artificially cheap prices and for more variety at more times throughout the year that is the problem.

A vegetarian and vegan diet is just as unnatural in many respects. Our climate does not naturally allow for the growth of a lot of different fruits and vegetables, yet we spend lots of money, and damage the environment a great deal by importing all these different products from all around the globe. Meat is definitely towards the worse end of the spectrum (for example the great amounts of rainforests that are cut down in order to create ranch space for cattle etc.), but fruit and vegetables are part of this problem.

We used to be a lot more self-sufficient living on a seasonal diet of whatever fruits, vegetables and meat could be sustainably produced within the local environment. Our diets would change year round, with more fruits and berries and the like around during the summer and autumn months, and then more of a reliance on meat and root vegetables during the winter. But now, we want everything good, all the time and that's not sustainable.

It's definitely something to think more about, and something that I definitely have thought about before like I say, but I don't think there is a simple 'no meat = nirvana' solution. But it's pretty pointless putting these thoughts across because nothing is going to change on that radical a level, and going vege or vegan is probably all we can do.

So then it comes down to, can I personally go without meat? And knowing that my non-participance would have absolutely NO effect long term am I willing to make that sacrifice.?I admire people who can make that committment, but i'm not sure I can just yet.

fair play mate, i completely agree with everything you're saying.
Like you say, people's eating habits have a large impact on the environment both meat eaters and veggies.
I agree, its a big commitment. On a more sort of preference level, i would say try it for a week.
Honestly, again i know i run the risk of sounding like the high and mighty preacher, you will feel the difference. After about 7 days, most of the meat will be out of your system, youll notice you have mroe energy, sleep better, shit better and generally feel better. I lost a stone of fat whilst gaining muscle on a veggie diet, and found the energy to run about 2-3 miles a day when before i'd be lucky to do that in a year!

I may well have to give it a proper go. I'm very much into my sports and fitness, so I'd be interested to see if it helped there.

I just really, really do enjoy the taste of meat, and I do think i'd miss it. I'm a pretty competent cook myself, so I don't doubt its possible to make tasty veggie meals (and undoubtedly cheaper on a student budget). It's just a fairly integral part of my diet at the moment, so it would be a pretty big change. Also, as I'm going home over the summer, I'll probably end up having meals done for me most of the time. I'll have to have a think and get looking up some decent veggie recipes.

[adwok]

I may well have to give it a proper go... I'll have to have a think and get looking up some decent veggie recipes.

Yesss... One small step for mankind

[ST100]

WHY THE FUCK DID I CLICK ON THIS THREAD WHILE I WAS EATING MY DINNER!!!!!! MADE ME FEEL FUCKING SICK!!!!

I just decided to open this up while eating cereal.....................




btw, vegans make me laugh.

[adwok]

btw, vegans make me laugh.

Good. Laughter is good. Violence is bad. Peace

[the wiggle baron]

goddam you de-fi stop posting what im thinking before I get a chance to Everything about the change in society (demands/population) being the problem

But...at someone who was comparing carnivores and herbivores...are we not omnivores? lol And im sure theres no point me bringing up the same arguments you will already have heard vis a vis teeth, eyes etc. You could prove these things all day either way!