this north/south london thing.

[boomnoise]

south london is a lot younger than north london - in the sense that it was largely fields/small towns round here 300 years ago, until the gaps were filled in between the centre of london and small conurbations like clapham, croydon, wimbledon etc. anyway historically it's not as big a deal, and the tube map reflects that to an extent (check drumzofthesouth for a cool inverted tube map).

as a result there's a slight sense of 'south london isn't proper london' coming from the north, and as a corollary south london has a bit of a 'screw you, yes we are' attitude. time out did a split north/south front page once, and then tried to break down how the two halves were different - laughable when they had a 'typical sth/nth ldn man and woman' picture spread - like how do people dress differently on different sides of the river??

anyway i'm always up for repping this side of the river. probably stems partly from working at the south london press (you can ask georgina about how this boosted her sth ldn pride as well), and from standing on the terraces at wimbledon (not the tennis, tcha!) and singing "south london, nah nah nah, south london, nah nah nah" at spurs/arsenal fans. also sth ldn grime pride in essentials/south agents/south soldiers, and this incredible, incredible song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOibZSIT ... ed&search=
SOUTH SIDE RUN TINGS STIIIIIIIIIIIIIILL lol

thanks for this attempt at an historical context dan / hi-def

and hi-def, i'm curious as your source for the hackney carriage thing. and more over, interested in the essense of the divide. personally i wouldn't have thought it could stem from any one thing, more year on year build up of geographic microcultural differences.

this territorialism is very interesting, thanks for highlighting it seckle. but dan, surely it can't be about what and what isn't proper london. i mean, i can see this as a contributing factor but surely not the souce of this..?

where's peter ackroyd when you need him.

[nattyphysicist]

I visited London in 97 and stayed with relatives in Harrow. They told me not to go south of the river. lol.

[hi-def]

Boomnoise -
Sorry bro, my post was flippancy at its most .. flippant. The theory I proposed has no historical basis. It was more a rant against taxi drivers than anything else. Glad that I managed to talk shite with authority tho'

[shonky]

Boomnoise -
Sorry bro, my post was flippancy at its most .. flippant. The theory I proposed has no historical basis. It was more a rant against taxi drivers than anything else. Glad that I managed to talk shite with authority tho'

Well done, you've passed the Offtopic iniatiion.

[benjybars]

a bit OT, but personally i don't like west london.. it's the part of london i know least, never hung out there etc..

so yeah, fuck west london!

[mos dan]

this territorialism is very interesting, thanks for highlighting it seckle. but dan, surely it can't be about what and what isn't proper london. i mean, i can see this as a contributing factor but surely not the souce of this..?

i see what you're saying, but i don't really know what else can be the source apart from 'real' london vs the former suburbs. because (and shonky you might wanna hold back hi-def's OTC membership card for now ) flippant or not, hi-def you made quite a valid point in raising the cabbie thing - it IS a popular idiom 'not going south of the river this time of night', and phoney or not, where does it come from? why is it a popular idiom? it must have started somewhere, and i think its roots lie in the same idea that disenfranchises sahfside from being seen (by some) as part of the metropolis proper, i.e. "why should i drive you to south london, that's like asking me to drive you to berkshire" or whatever.

where's peter ackroyd when you need him.

lol. where's georgina when you need her?? she's way better on this stuff than i am!

benjy i feel the same way about west - totally alien to me in a way no other part of ldn is, for some reason.

[echo wanderer]

All about South Central San Francisco

Hush yo mout!!!


You talkin' 'bout Da XLCR,HP,or Da 'View??

[echo wanderer]

[spaceboy]

a bit OT, but personally i don't like west london.. it's the part of london i know least, never hung out there etc..

so yeah, fuck west london!

west london says fuck it doesnt know u, so fuck u too

ya see seckle?

[deamonds]

im from east london so im not 2 sure about the rivalry, dont east london have a bit of a rivalry with sum1 then??

boomnoise do u of any rivalry with other bits???

i couldnt give a fuck personally, i dont rep an area i rep myself

[boomnoise]

well i'm from newcastle originally so the only rivallary i care about is the one with the mackems.

[shonky]

well i'm from newcastle originally so the only rivallary i care about is the one with the mackems.

Who are the mackems? Seen this come up a few times - I love hearing about local tribal bollocks.

[sand leaper]

well i'm from newcastle originally so the only rivallary i care about is the one with the mackems.

Who are the mackems? Seen this come up a few times - I love hearing about local tribal bollocks.

Mackem

Noun. A person from Sunderland. As used by Geordies (those born in Newcastle upon Tyne), from the vocal pronunciation of those from Sunderland. Also spelt Makem. Occasionally derog.

[Whistla]

im from east london so im not 2 sure about the rivalry, dont east london have a bit of a rivalry with sum1 then??

yeh man in my ends (east-side) west london is considered "posh" and a place that u wudnt hang out as a yoot cos of its "poshness"
i think the norf/south thing might ave sumthing to do with the histroy (esp during the 70's/80's) of riots in brixton etc... (maybe)
far more of a divide is the norf and south of the country one, imo.
when i was livin in the norf (sheffield) the mans dere (esp old ones) wud act like i was talking a foreign language "wots that cockney saying again" all in a jokesy way still, but they was an undercurrent of seriousness. the "you people from london with your money" etc... (nevermind the fact i lived there 3 years, worked there and earnt the same money as them, lol)
its all cool tho really, the way it used to be say jus 10 years ago re north/south england divide was much worse, i actually knew people back then that wudnt go "up north" to what they considered industrial wastelands!

[mos dan]

the anti-london inferiority complex remains strong in some parts i think. the calls to five live about the olympics recently were funny - "why should we subsidise those spoiled londoners, we won't get anything out of it" was the general sentiment. yeah, cos london tax revenue doesn't help the sticks at all

what's that statistic about a quarter of the civil servants in wales being employed purely to dish out farm subsidies? lol.

yeah just to clarify, there isn't really much of a north ldn vs south ldn rivalry, don't want to exaggerate it: it's just where it does exist it interests me...

[mungo]

yeah just to clarify, there isn't really much of a north ldn vs south ldn rivalry

Maybe not in your book.. but the rivalry still runs strong with any true londoner (& I mean londener, not the outer towners, that move to london and after a couple of weeks & get brainwashed by Ken, then consider themselves londoners)..

I really love the rivalry.. I have played in North v south softball, football tournaments And made lots of friends.. These tournaments would never of happened with out a rivalry..
So therefore I fucking hate the North London ponse brigade.. Up your Bum Nort london..

[shonky]

I think the majority of anti-London feeling's got a lot more to do with the monied fuckers who push up the prices anywhere within commuting distance of the capital. I realise that this doesn't apply to the majority of folks on this forum from London as they're probably milked blind by the same people.

Not even talking just about property (like I'm ever gonna buy anything), but just the general cost of living. I moved over here ten years ago, as it was fairly cheap, and had quite a lively artistic side, but the gentrification does seem to mean that a lot of City people are buying weekend flats here, meaning that a lot of folks born here can't afford to live here. We're gradually getting closer to London prices yet the wages are pretty low in comparison, so seeing loads of rich fuckers coming down does fuel resentment.

Funny thing about the London Olympics is that they'll probably be doing most of the water events in Bournemouth from what I hear - that'd be like south,south, south, west London I take it

[elgato]

well i'm from newcastle originally so the only rivallary i care about is the one with the mackems.

lol ive been sitting here trying to think of a way i can realistically and rationally rep my ends, and say something witty and degrading, but i dont think i can do it! maybe that we're better at having depressingly underprivileged areas devoid of hope? i dont even think thats true, i'd call it a score draw. truth be told i think theres hardly any difference between sunderland and newcastle, except that newcastle is bigger, and so every proportional element of it is bigger... the fall-out of different industries has affected us in similar ways, except that now the soul-destroying call-centres are starting to proliferate in sunderland, which i guess is a good thing in a sense

im kind of a neutral now though what with moving to central suburban newcastle :/

[mos dan]

except that now the soul-destroying call-centres are starting to proliferate in sunderland, which i guess is a good thing in a sense

unless you have to work in one innit

if it's mackems vs geordies, then where to middlesborough (or durham) people feature in this?

[elgato]

the anti-london inferiority complex remains strong in some parts i think. the calls to five live about the olympics recently were funny - "why should we subsidise those spoiled londoners, we won't get anything out of it" was the general sentiment. yeah, cos london tax revenue doesn't help the sticks at all

its got to be said that the london superiority complex doesnt help! not to attribute that to you, but enough people come out of london thinking its everything, like it IS the UK! lol at your use of "the sticks" as a synonym for "the rest of the UK" btw!