Can dubstep learn from the mistakes of DnB?

[dogdaze]

(Amit uses halftime drums for example)

yeah and it kicks ass! really digging 'second cut' on bingo records.
ironically it sounds like fast dubstep to me now

[bruno belluomini]

Amit is a great producer...

[capsule]

What mistakes?? I still got much love for DnB just as much as Dubstep. I know DnB sounds all the same, and that Dubstep is more musical wiv more feelin in it. But thats the reason why i love DnB, its simple but still i love it. Im addicted to drums (beats if we talk about Dubstep) n bass. But tell me what kinda mistakes? U luv it or u dont. U cant put DnB and Dubstep into one box....

[ufo over easy]

for example all dnb tunes have an underlying drum break rolling through it where as dubstep seems to be a lot less formulaic, hopefully therefor we will always be in for positive inovations

That's not a valid point at all. Jungle started out that way, and a lot of drum and bass still involves syncopated, constantly evolving drums...

As Pez said, there is still good drum and bass out there, but I'm losing faith in it more and more all the time. Producers like Breakage, Seba, Senses... basically the Inperspective/Bassbin guys used to do it for me, but that stuff seems to be losing momentum - no one's releasing the music, the nights are slowing down, and the music is getting less and less inspiring. Hopefully 2006 will change that, but for me, the most interesting drum and bass is coming from producers who don't produce it very often, and aren't involved actively with the scene. Microhouse producers like Ezekiel Honig have started making cool 170bpm tracks, and guys like Graphic, Martsman, LXC, and Morgan Packard are making awesome glitchy, electronica/techno inspired drum and bass. It has next to nothing to do with the "scene" though.

As for dubstep learning from the mistakes of drum and bass... I don't think many of the criticisms levelled at drum and bass are particularly relevant. Drum and bass didn't fall into decline because of drugs; hardcore and jungle wouldn't have developed as it did without ecstacy. It didn't fall apart because of fast tempos - there were plenty of old tunes that ran at 170bpm, and DJs used to pitch up records to +7 back then anyway. Check any old Trace or Hype sets circa 1995 for proof. It didn't fall apart because of big loud brash noises... dancefloor drum and bass was never particularly subtle, and it's not like Photek or Source Direct made sound system music. Drum and bass producers in general just ran out of ideas, and started making music to make money, and to make ravers gurn. What I was talking about with producers outside the scene making drum and bass might have something to do with it though. Drum and bass is so closed - it's really hard for producers who don't have contacts with the major players to break through, and maybe that sort of inbreeding prevents new ideas coming across. If dubstep should learn anything from drum and bass, I think it should make very sure to be open minded to new ideas... there's new producers coming through all the time though, like Caspa and L-Wiz for example, so at the moment it seems to be doing fine

[point-blanc]

I think there's many a fair comment made here and i agree with much of the sentiment that people have to offer. I was a DnB head myself and lost it with the scene a while back. Infact i've had to relearn that i can still enjoy DnB by listening to my old tunes again and seeking out the (small number of) new tunes that i can enjoy.

however, there's a lot of fear and conjecture inside the (dubstep) scene at the moment what with all the hype, i'm sure Dubstep Warz on radio one is mostly responsible - mans are afraid that the scene might go sour and stagnate with its new-found attention.

Yeah, i bet there are lessons to be quietly learned and things we should mindful of. But can we avoid spending the next year spinning out about this too much.

The Pie is hot!!! Lets eat it now rather than worrying about it going cold, get me?

[kion]

dnb made no mistakes really - it's just run it's course vibe-wise, thats all.

The reason a lot of the 'inner-circle' shut the gates was after the initial exposure in '93/'94, when artists like General Levi claimed they 'ran the dance'. They kept a quality control on it (and ironically, when that control dissipated due to the abundence of new labels that started to appear when it went global, that's when the scene started it's descent into the abyss).

And it was also to ensure longevity in the scene, which kinda worked (unlike with UKG which had it's meteoric rise then fizzled out just as quickly).

When youngas are first exposed to dnb, even now, they feel it as fresh because it is to them - they haven't 'heard it all before'. Every type of music has a life cycle, and dnb has had a fantastic run, but then nothing lasts forever.

However, it's also the clubbers and ravers that make a scene, and when those people move on, the scene dies. Tribes move around, and at the moment, a lot of those tribes are looking for something new - dubstep happens to have evolved at just the right time.

One of the lessons it wants to learn from dnb is a positive one - as long as it keeps true to itself and doesn't try to 'sell out' (ie water itself down for mass consumption), it'll last a hell of a lot longer and will be more successful in the long run than other genres like UKG where artists went for 'the quick buck'.

[seckle]

the internet is largely responsible for dnb's decade long history. without it, it would've died long ago. napster/sour blew open all the doors for underground music.
if there's anything to be learned by the state of dubstep in 2006, it is to stop worrying about it being global, and just accept that small genre's of electronica; post-napster, can't be controlled by anyone or any group.
we're living in a one-click-away world.

[ufo over easy]

Ken - if you accept that Sour and ripping groups were at least partially responsible for dnb's survival, why are so you anti filesharing? It's not even like you're a bit dubious about it, your posts on drum and bass forums make you seem ridiculously passionately against it.

[signal]

well...being a producer still involved in the dnb market, id just like to say that it seems easier to generalize a whole scene of music when youre not exposing yourself to the style you look for in it.

Drum & Bass nowadays is a term applied with many, MANY different facets. Its the result of constant reinvention as a means of progression. Yeah, it started with hardcore, went jumpy, went dark, and its constantly feeding into a self perpetuating cycle. This is where it starts seeming stale, when there is a lack of freshness. That doesnt mean that there isnt good shit out there...if there is a part of dnb that you liked to listen to in the past, i can guaruntee you that some mofo is making something you'll like. The bottom line is that there are 2 layers to drum & bass, the top 40 and the not top 40 (lol).

but really thats a result of fuckin 14 years of growth. how can any form of music stay raw and stark for that long? with that much time comes much global exposure, spanning generations of listeners and creators.
Lets see how dubstep fairs in 15 years...

so to me, its a bit obtuse to say dnb 'failed', dnb did not fail, theres so much good that came of it, and still some good coming out of it now...its just most of the people who stopped listening to it shut their ears to anything else it had to offer, because they are finished with it. (much like im finished with trance.)

so yea, im not trying to fiercely dnb in any way, but i think some perspective had to be given, since (as mentioned earlier) there are a lot of ex'drum & bass heads here.

[mr peach]

as long as dubstep stays fresh 'til i get bored of it, then all is good.

[citizen]

Hey Signal, I hope I didn't give the wrong impression. "Mistakes" was just a cheeky word I put in my thread title, so that more people would hopefully read my thoughts.

I still LOVE and buy DnB. I still listen to it and attend events regularly and I am mates with most of the key DnB dj's and promoters in my city.

DnB hasn't "failed", but certainly MOST DnB does nothing for me - I'm just not feeling it as much as I once did.

I didn't intend to create a genre-bashing thread. I can assure you my intention was to hopefully get some of the key producers who are on this forum to offer some comments about how they can direct the evolution of the sound in the best way possible. I hope a few more offer their perspective - perhaps by drawing a paralell between the dubstep and it's "ancestor" Jungle, some productive ideas may arise regarding the progression of dubstep.

[citizen]

By the way, I think it's no small coincidence that the same DnB producers have been repeatedly namechecked by us dubstep fans as favourites. You guys have basically outlined a list of the stuff that fills my crate!

Seems that Amit, Seba, Paradox, Senses, Bassbin, Equinox etc. have the flavours that we crave!

Bruno, I agree, Amit is a wicked, wicked producer. One of the few who is truly deserving of the title "innovator".

[dogdaze]

Seems that Amit, Seba, Paradox, Senses, Bassbin, Equinox etc. have the flavours that we crave!

While we're at it, gotta give props to Alpha Omega/Nubian Mindz and younger guys such as Fracture & Neptune, Macc & dgoHn too. Those guys have been bringing d&b back to my attention lately.

[dudeski]

While i agree peolple like paradox are good producers, and i sometimes buy their stuff when i'm feeling it; i'd still be bored to death after hearing drumfunk for a whole night.

Those people have been rinsing the same formula for years now, just like the jump-up n liquid producers...luckily there are quite a few exceptions (Amit, Breakage, Chase n Status,...) who don't really give a f*ck about genres and tempos and are keeping things fresh.

[citizen]

Oh shit - I totally forgot Alpha Omega! Awesome. "Know How/Tribalist" was one of my favourite releases last year.

They have a new release out at Juno with a Pieter K rmx on the flip. Sublime!

[dogdaze]

There's also this triplepack with plates from both Alpha Omega and Pieter K in it, from Subvertcentral.com. I must admit not having heard those tunes myself yet , but should def be worth checking out for d&b heads. Nuff respect to them for the diy approach too.

[signal]

Hey Signal, I hope I didn't give the wrong impression. "Mistakes" was just a cheeky word I put in my thread title, so that more people would hopefully read my thoughts.

I still LOVE and buy DnB. I still listen to it and attend events regularly and I am mates with most of the key DnB dj's and promoters in my city.

DnB hasn't "failed", but certainly MOST DnB does nothing for me - I'm just not feeling it as much as I once did.

I didn't intend to create a genre-bashing thread. I can assure you my intention was to hopefully get some of the key producers who are on this forum to offer some comments about how they can direct the evolution of the sound in the best way possible. I hope a few more offer their perspective - perhaps by drawing a paralell between the dubstep and it's "ancestor" Jungle, some productive ideas may arise regarding the progression of dubstep.

its all good, its a good topic to be discussed. i definitely understand what sucks about drum & bass, trust me..hehe

[TRG]

Quite a few breaks djs digging dubstep as well...Tayo keeps spinning Mala and Distance in his kiss100 sets..yeah the breakier ones, but you still see Hotflush and Boka popping up in their tracklists so I guess they know where the next level is

[ufo over easy]

There's also this triplepack with plates from both Alpha Omega and Pieter K in it, from Subvertcentral.com. I must admit not having heard those tunes myself yet , but should def be worth checking out for d&b heads. Nuff respect to them for the diy approach too.

You need to pick that up man, killer release!

[seckle]

Ken - if you accept that Sour and ripping groups were at least partially responsible for dnb's survival, why are so you anti filesharing?

for obvious reasons. financially, dnb just like dubstep needs all the support it can get. i'm against people robbing producers and labels from income, just because they have an internet connection.
i never said that sour was a good thing for dnb. i was just making the point that it did change the course of dnb forever.