Percieved volume vs. Power?

[Basic A]

Okay, so Im owkrin on this E.P. project, right, and I started lettin previews out last night so I could get some feedback before everything gets 320ed into stone... Good responses, not as many jackass '230 PPLLLZZZ people as Im used too, breath of fresh air to get real resonses, lol...

But, my question is, when I mixed down one of the tracks, I judged the placement of the sounds by thier meters and actual power more then I trusted my own percieved loudness, an dIm wondering if this is a good or bad idea? I wasnt on monitors, and I know too trust my ears, but, too get the sound Im talking about to be perceptually quieter (Ive heard its too loud now [thx vulvavibrations]) I end up reducing its output power to less then 70% the peak of the other sounds in its set... N with that, Im afraid that on larger, more sensitive systems, those power swings mght actually produce a change in percepton... am I wrong for thinking this? Anyone have any advice on lowering perceived volume without effecting power output, or am I just looking to much into technical stuff and not enough into sound?

The song Imtlaking about is the top track in my myspace and soundcloud right now, if soundcloud ever comes back up... Links in sig...

Input on this fellas? Which should I be trusting, my ears or my meters, I know i should trust both, but what if they totally contradict each other on something like this, n thier doesnt seem to be much middle ground?

[phrex]

how did you mix it up?

i found a big big difference in the way of mixing it up.
i first listen to each channel seperatly and fix the volume, looking first of all of course at the meters. no red ones my only rule actually. tehn after that i listen to the track and while playing it i change the volume of each channel.
btw: it made everything much more accurate and way easyer with a midi controler that has those pitch thingys (i use the apc40).

probably not really the answer to your question.. but maybe it helps a little?

[narcissus]

in general it's a bad idea.. you might sometimes, or even often, get good results by just scoping the meters, but to make sure people will be hearing what you want, YOU have to hear want you want.. most people don't listen to music while watching a spectrum analyzer

[Basic A]

in general it's a bad idea.. you might sometimes, or even often, get good results by just scoping the meters, but to make sure people will be hearing what you want, YOU have to hear want you want.. most people don't listen to music while watching a spectrum analyzer

Right right, I get this totally, but the thing is it takes such a sharp dub in power out of the mid bass to achieve it, something too me seems wrong about it when the rest of the basses share similar frequencies and occupy alot more power, too have a spectrum jump between this db n that db to compensate, has to effect different systems different ways, since were dealing with preamp power, right? Especially creating such wierd power signals over something that is obviously by definition in my head, like perceived volume, could the jumping of the power output not effect percieved volume on another, more power sensitive system, like at a club?

@vulva ... So... I know how volume works man, Im asking about the possible bad side effects of big power swings to compensate for percieved volume. N btw... Korg NANOkontrol all the way, thier like PC keyboards for midi, so cheap, so get it done equipment.

[phrex]

guessi didn't get the question

anyway, isn't my apc, way too expensive in a my opinion (tho makes sense for live sessions). anyway, good luck with finding the right answer, i unfortunatly can't give it

[Basic A]

guessi didn't get the question

anyway, isn't my apc, way too expensive for my opinion. anyway, good luck with finding the right answer., i unfortunatly can't give it

Lol, yeah, but if I could afford one, id have it, so, consider yourself lucky yo! N Im tryin, so thanks for the luck.

[narcissus]

i dunno, but i'd think you'd really have to hear the specific track on a proper system to be able to tell for sure... but it's certainly possible it would create problems, though i wouldn't worry about it too much. if most of your bassline is riding okay a weak system, and then you go down low and lose perceived volume, then it's not a good idea to compensate with lots of gain because that low note might absolutely BLAST on a proper system.. which could easily ruin your mix, depending on what you want.. so you'd wanna trust the meters in that case.. if you can't mix w/ monitors, it's all about knowing the limitations of your equipment and how/when to compensate or not compensate for it...

[Basic A]

i dunno, but i'd think you'd really have to hear the specific track on a proper system to be able to tell for sure... but it's certainly possible it would create problems, though i wouldn't worry about it too much. if most of your bassline is riding okay a weak system, and then you go down low and lose perceived volume, then it's not a good idea to compensate with lots of gain because that low note might absolutely BLAST on a proper system.. which could easily ruin your mix, depending on what you want.. so you'd wanna trust the meters in that case.. if you can't mix w/ monitors, it's all about knowing the limitations of your equipment and how/when to compensate or not compensate for it...

Yeah, the basslines stable, the track centers on some real top mid sounds n the bass is just a nice clean sine sub doin it progressions and fillin the air, but its thoese mid upper bit im on about, I know you have to trust meters on bass, thats the kinda shit thatll get you misleveled at the start of a tune as a dj, n then youll be runnin in fear of a pissed off sound tech, lol... Im just afraid if the mids jump power, ill have the same problem... Hit my myspace up if you wanna hear the track before I did whats below too it, and tell me if I even had a problem in the first place

I tihnk I devised a solution in the most dumbshit way ever, but, I turned the sounds down that paired with it n then compressed them with a bit of harmonic shift-n-layer using the Phat... haha... I really tihnk I was looking at this wrong, and instead of trying to turn the percieved volume of a sound down the power up, I had to turn the percieved of the rest up and the power down, der.

[twistedol]

ez BasicA.

i think if u want to know bit more about percieved loudness n shit then read into psychoacoustics. basically there was this study into how the ear percieves sound of different frequencies. Serious, check out a Fletcher Munson curve. They found that the ear percieves frequencies at different levels - our ear is biased towards frequencies around 2-5kHz. Bass is typically 100 times harder to hear than vocal frequencies (as you see from the graph). If it helps, read it upside down (honest).



Then there psychoacoustic masking, whereby if one frequency has a certain bandwidth/energy level, another lower/higher freq will have to be turned up loads more to be heard cos the energy in the first tone is more than the neighbouring tones. The ear is split up into regions called critical bands, so if a hihat isnt EQ'd to removed the mid-freq clangyness then the snare will be masked cos that pesky HH is exciting regions of the ear which would otherwise be excited by the snare. This is all proper physics/acoustics shiz but it also explains why you need to notch out certain bass freqs for the kik to be heard etc. Look at fig 4 on this lovely graph.



The duration of sounds also makes sounds appear louder too.

As for your original question - soz, went on a bit there - try dropping out middy freqs because they give a sense of closeness and often contains lots of power. As for power on the whole, try using a sidechained compressor on certain sounds to tame the power/dynamics of certain sounds. by reducing the dynamic range at certain freqs it should eat up less of the power spectrum.

Hope that helps or gives some insight into sound n shit. The study of acoustics is amazing when you apply it to sound n producing. BTW im sat listening to your 'Devoured half hour' ting on SC and its filthier than the Zimbabwe's human rights record. Big up!!!!

PS sorry pics are soooo big x

[BLAHBLAHJAH]

Something to consider is the vibrations that arn't directly transmitted through the air - mainly the subs that vibrate through the floor and your body. This plays a big part in perception. I used to have hours of retarded fun doing lines of kevin then spooning a sub

[macc]

Great post twistedol

[Mad_EP]

macc- where you been???

get back online proper, homeboy

[drokkr]

http://www.dynamicrange.de/

Read, learn and sign up.

[deadly_habit]

Great post twistedol

[macc]

macc- where you been???

get back online proper, homeboy

Insanely busy in all ways shapes and forms. BIg big things going on here. Nearly done... one more month or so.

[symmetricalsounds]

if you can't mix w/ monitors, it's all about knowing the limitations of your equipment and how/when to compensate or not compensate for it...

this ^