Anyone think that arabic/islamic countries would be

[magma]

The idea that people will raise the stakes and go nuclear on conflict is a pretty massive leap in logic for me...

It came very close to blows about 25 years ago.

I did mention that in the sentence before the one you quoted... it didn't happen and that's with two states flexing their nuclear muscles to the absolute max. I don't like the idea of nuclear proliferation, but there seems to be some thought here that because Israel has nukes it must be planning to use them. The same logic that the US would like us to believe about Iran. I don't buy it from warmongers in Washington and I don't buy it from hatemongers on the web.

What the article is discussing is the possibility of a tiny state wiping out an entire continent which it depends on massively for trade... it's complete madness! Yeah, it's a possibility... but it's about as likely as Luxemburg wiping out the whole of Asia.

So many people want to convince us to hate somebody. Hate Americans. Hate Israelis. Hate Palestinians. Hate Iranians. Hate Christians. Hate Muslims. Hate terrorists. Hate peaceniks. Hate drug users. Fuck it all... it's so fucking negative. I've absolutely adored most humans I've ever met.

[firky]

Well the Politburo certainly wanted to strike back going as far as scrambling bombers into the air over eastern europe ready to drop a bomb. We perhaps came closer to what we all fear than we did in 1962. Only one state was flexing it's muscles, Russia was shitting bricks.

[magma]

Well the Politburo certainly wanted to strike back going as far as scrambling bombers into the air over eastern europe ready to drop a bomb. We perhaps came closer to what we all fear than we did in 1962. Only one state was flexing it's muscles, Russia was shitting bricks.

And this has what to do with it being "inevitable" that Israel will destroy the whole of Europe with nuclear weapons?

Have you read the Fog of War? America didn't want to launch either, you know!

[kani]

aside from the quote from the OP stating that such an outcome might be inevitable.

The article that links to is the ravings of a mad historian posted on a website dedicated to blatant anti-Israeli propaganda. It was a really persuasive find.

Israel has no motive for attacking any Western nation. If it did it would become a pariah state and have nobody to trade with anymore. And that's if the retaliation didn't erase it from the map which it clearly would.

i guess distinctions should be made between who is saying what,. but as far as what is said, Israel is not held to the same standards of saber rattling (or nukes for that matter) as Iran here in the US, and there have been a lot of dominionist statements made by Israeli parliment members and leaders.

and as far as mutually assured destruction, youd have to be a country with a national belief in some end times prophecy that called for the destruction of all your enemies for it to make any sense.

i hate even considering things like these, its such bullshit to begin with and there is so much blood shed already that you could spend a lifetime discussing the history of the issue. my only concern is that the 'solution' to Iran becomes a military one.

[firky]

America wasn't launching and didn't even know what had happened until after the event. As for what relevance it has, i was addressing your quaint notion that people won't raise the stakes and grab nukes, i.e the statement below isn't really true.

mutually assured destruction was just about enough to keep a rivalry as bitter as the Soviet Union and the US from even going to war with each other, let alone firing any big missiles.

Russia was a gnat's whisker to launching an attack within my (and your) life time. It has been said that the only reason Russia didn't drop the bombs is because of a Colonel in the KGB who saw sense.

[magma]

You mean in all close calls so far a human has seen sense and not fired the missiles? Humans don't like firing nukes, do they? I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. (and we're clearly talking about different events anyway, as I was discussing the Cuban Missile Crisis in my posts and I certainly wasn't alive for that!!)

Anyway, back on topic - what do you think of the idea that Israel destroying the *whole of Europe* is "inevitable"?

Personally, I think it's rather silly and reactionary.

[EPIC FALE]

dont be messn wit my jews

[hackman]

i've never said the op was fact, just another example of how crazy SOME people in israel actually are

[gnome]

Haha I just sat LOLing at the first sentence.

[parson]

i don't think nuclear war is in the cards.

[kay]

I disagree with the way Israel came to be but I also disagree with bloodshed on either side.

I think the best thing anyone outside of Israel/Palestine can do is just vote for polical figures who wish not to intervene with the conflict to avoid bloodshed in their own countries as a result of foreign meddling (911, etc etc). Israel won't be attacked by other countries if we stay out of Israel since they have nuclear weapons, similarly, they won't attack other countries because they're literally surrounded by enemies. It'll always be a heated situation. The main source of problems here is Western Europe and the USA adding both fuel to the fire AND keeping peace which is really just a ticking time bomb that disables any form of decent communication between Israel and Palestine.

[bass hertz]

This shit is about as constructive as the war itself.


:going nowhere; slowly:

[kay]

Anyway, if things got to the point of Israel deciding to launch its nukes, that'd pretty much mean it had reached the end of its days. In that case, it'd be pretty pointless to send the nukes at Europe. I'd send them at the Arabic states that were probably ending Israel. Y'know, take 'em down with you.

As for whether Israel had enough nukes would make a dent in Europe, all it takes is one or two to get through. It's not just the immediate effects that are devastating, it's the after-effects that last for years. Which, depending on prevalent wind direction could contaminate a pretty fucking big portion of Europe for a very long time.

[uncle bill]

i've never said the op was fact, just another example of how crazy SOME people in israel actually are

Ok, well that's a whole different story. The historian quoted on that propaganda website is one very eccentric person as far as I can tell and he doesn't have any power. If it had been a senior Israeli government minister it would have been a scoop.

There are crazy people in every country and some of them get to publish books and articles. Some people in this country think the world is run by lizards. Others think there's an international socialist conspiracy controlling the media. I wouldn't trust them with the red button any more than I'd trust a historian with no apparent understanding of the past or the present.

Saying that, for all I know Van Creveld's words may have been taken completely out of context. If he's speaking in a purely theoretical way it's possible that any nuclear power could strike anywhere within range if it really had nothing to lose. Incredibly unlikely in Israel's case though.

[hackman]

this was just a random venting my anger thread at israel triggered by seeing that link, which does not agree with my views about what israel may be doing

[uncle bill]

this was just a random venting my anger thread at israel triggered by seeing that link, which does not agree with my views about what israel may be doing

Fair enough. I expect most Westerners are pissed off with Israel at the moment. The US government are furious.

[hackman]

it's a complete disgrace what they did when biden went over, I mean, what the fuck?

[uncle bill]

it's a complete disgrace what they did when biden went over, I mean, what the fuck?

Completely. Did you see that programme on Channel 4 last night about the campaign against Hamas in Gaza a few years ago? It was pretty fucking bleak - dads talking about their kids getting shot by Israeli soldiers, people seeing the ruins of their houses, ten year old Palestinian boys playing shoot the Jew in the head...

I think everyone understands why you're angry. It's just not a great idea to make Israel out to be the great Satan without looking at the context.

[firky]

You mean in all close calls so far a human has seen sense and not fired the missiles? Humans don't like firing nukes, do they? I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. (and we're clearly talking about different events anyway, as I was discussing the Cuban Missile Crisis in my posts and I certainly wasn't alive for that!!)

I believe collectively humans are against many, if not all, atrocities however when it comes down to a single person with a great deal of power and influence we get things like mass genocide, we thought it would never happen again in Europe but the three year wra in Bosnia and Herzegovina quelled that myth. So I do think it is plausible if unlikely. And yeah... I was talking about Able Archer, which you may have been alive for - it was in the early 80s. NATO had an exercise that was so realistic and on such a scale that Russia thought America was readying it's self for a nuclear attack and Russia prepared it's self for a counter-strike. The US version of events down play it obviously but if you read outside of the American sphere of influence you'll see how close we were to kicking off WW3. Reagan famously described as Armageddon and the final fight between good and bad

Anyway, back on topic - what do you think of the idea that Israel destroying the *whole of Europe* is "inevitable"?

Personally, I think it's rather silly and reactionary.

Load of rubbish, there's more Jews in Europe than there is in Israel which is a tiny little country not much bigger than Wales. Indeed outside of Israel and New York I think London is home to more Jews than anywhere else. But just suppose they did for arguments sake, how are they going to get around the British nukes, there's several subs at undisclosed locations at any point in time ready to launch several megaton nukes? After America and Russia we're the third most nuclear armed country in the world. France has nukes, Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, and Turkey have a joint nuke sharing policy and keep passing their warheads around so it is impossible to know where their nukes or at anyone time. A nuclear strike against Europe would be suicide.

[magma]

I was talking about Able Archer, which you may have been alive for - it was in the early 80s. NATO had an exercise that was so realistic and on such a scale that Russia thought America was readying it's self for a nuclear attack and Russia prepared it's self for a counter-strike. The US version of events down play it obviously but if you read outside of the American sphere of influence you'll see how close we were to kicking off WW3. Reagan famously described as Armageddon and the final fight between good and bad

Strangely for someone of our agegroup, the 80s are my blackspot for American politics. Well, non-economic politics anyway. I get all obsessed with Europe in the 80s for some reason... I'll have to look that up, sounds intruiging. I think we're pretty much reading off the same page, tbh. I agree that it's possible for nuclear war to happen until all the nukes are gone (and I'd very much like to see that happen eventually), but I was just arguing that given America and the USSR never managed to fire a single one at each other, it seems rather unlikely a state like Israel would aim hundreds at Europe.

Load of rubbish, there's more Jews in Europe than there is in Israel which is a tiny little country not much bigger than Wales. Indeed outside of Israel and New York I think London is home to more Jews than anywhere else. But just suppose they did for arguments sake, how are they going to get around the British nukes, there's several subs at undisclosed locations at any point in time ready to launch several megaton nukes? After America and Russia we're the third most nuclear armed country in the world. France has nukes, Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, and Turkey have a joint nuke sharing policy and keep passing their warheads around so it is impossible to know where their nukes or at anyone time. A nuclear strike against Europe would be suicide.

I wonder why people feel the need to be quite so afraid of everything?