the problem with dubstep productions today..

[slothrop]

IMHO: You guys are all so close to the real crux, at least what I've discovered it to be lately in my own productions -

IF the original proposition is "much Dubstep lacks the sonic character/quality of earlier sample-driven music" and "it all sounds like it's made 'in the box' (computer) with plugins/software..." then:

Yes, this is largely true. But the missing component isn't sampling - it's the character/quality of what's being sampled, including its musicality - BUT ALSO and possibly more importantly, it's the fuckin' SIGNAL PATHS those recordings used, i.e. analog, line, stompbox, pre-amp, whatever -

i.e. taking it outside the box.

Even running your all-digital DAW-produced tune through a nice fat Avalon stereo compressor, or running your kicks out through hardware DBX 160's - even those simple things can add unbelievable life, warmth, character, definition to a track that began life as nothing more than 1's & 0's. Even using cassette recorders as a drum treatment can do impressive things!

Seriously.

Not to start an analog vs. digital flame-o-rama, because that shit's stupid. Use what works. Period. And don't be afraid to mix it up.

Oh christ. I hope and pray that the dubstep community doesn't end up descending into the same analog-vs-digital civil war that's plagued house and techno since computers were fast enough to emulate a synthesizer. Far too many people use "analog" as a missing crutch -- "if I had loads of expensive outboard gear my productions would be so great" -- bollocks they would. More like "if you were blessed with half an ounce of original thought..."

Don't get me wrong, I do agree with you and I love hardware; I make extensive use of a reel-to-reel for tape echo and saturation and so on; I love the interaction you get with separate pieces of gear compared to working on a screen; I love the difference in workflow etc etc. If I had more money I would probably buy more analog gear. But really.... the fact that most recent dubstep sounds like it was made in the box is not *really* the issue. It's not about production values or mixdowns. The issue is a lack of songwriting imagination, and that's not solved by tubes, saturation or tape hiss.

Yeah, exactly. I can still remember Midnight Request Line and that sounds like a tinkle town plastic computer toy production, but it sticks because it has something going for it.

Yeah, totally agree - this sort of argument seemed quite plausible when people were talking about why modern house doesn't sound as good as classic house (because people are working all ITB rather than using lots of analogue synths and real vocalists and instrumentalists), a bit tenuous when talking about why modern dnb doesn't sound as good as classic jungle (because people are working all ITB rather than using cheap rubbish digital samplers which are nonetheless have magic 1s and 0s because they're implemented in hardware not software) but it gets absolutely ridiculous when we're talking about dubstep, where a lot of the classic tunes that everyone loves are entirely written in Fruityloops or Reason.

This isn't some subjective "ooh I can't hear the difference in all this analogue nonsense" type thing - it's raw fact that if there's "unbelievable life, warmth, character" in tunes like Request Line or Anti War Dub or System or Haunted or The Judgement, it must be because Loefah, Mala, Skream, Benga and pals wrote music with life,warmth and character, not because of the fucking signal path.

I mean if you like the sound of going out to tape or hardware compressors or whatever then fair play to you - personally, I quite like the sound and really like it as a way of switching up my workflow and keeping ideas moving - but if you're into dubstep then you absolutely can't say it's the missing ingredient that's making the new stuff sound crap.

[nowaysj]

again I think this comes down to producers trying to follow rules that don't even exist.

[abZ]

On the problem with dubstep productions...

Side stepping the analog vs. digital debate, the problem with dubstep productions today is (IMO) that so many of them are made by people who use other dubstep tracks as their inspiration.

DnB started going tits up for the same reason a while back, producers were just listening to tracks within their own genre and then making tracks of that same genre without drawing on outside influences.

You get this production based inbreeding that means certain elements found within dubstep (see: wobble, filth) are picked up on by producers by other producers who are then copied by other producers and so on and so forth.

True, you do still get tracks that can adhere to the 'rules' of dubstep (however you interpret them to be) and that are amazing. But it's like breeding dalmations - they look wicked with the spots and everything, but most of them are so inbred they can't stand up by themselves.

This is a broad generalisation and I am by no means applying this to all dubstep producers/artists


On sampling....

It's awesome and people should do more. Audacity is free to use and I think that every machine that is ever on the internet should have a copy installed. Set the input to stereo mix and sample EVERYTHING that you come across during the day. Radio streams, BBC Radio4 comedy programmes, YouTube videos, fucking EVERYTHING.

Hell 90% of what you get, even 99%, you might listen back to the next day and realise it is shit. But you get some fucking gems, get unique sounds, plus the smug sense of self satisfaction that you're not using sample packs.

Find samples you like, loop them in your DAW and then layer sounds around them. So many tunes I hear (not limiting this to the dubstep genre by any stretch) are basically ploddy rhythm tracks that ZOMG AMAZING have had a 70s disco loop shoehorned into them to add some panache. Bollocks to that.

I'm not going to wax lyrical about the why's and wherefores of sampling, but I recommend having a gander at BMT's take on it here.

Yeah it is becoming a parody of itself. On the bright side, every genre has been through similar times. It either comes out the other side sounding fresh or everyone moves on. I think the sound is too popular to just end. Then again what I am saying is a bit of a generalization. there is the usual suspects at the top10 beatport and heards of sheep trying to rip them off. Let's be fair we are talking about that here. Loads of interesting stuff going on too just below the surface.

[ben freeman]

Even though I'm new to production, I know for sure I am getting new sounds I have never heard before. The most interesting part of production to me is sound design. I sit in front of my synth and tweek any sample till it is something completely different, then I save that preset and do it again and form another, etc. That's what it's all about. Layering sounds together, then redesigning, adding distortion, then resampling that, You could do it a 1000 times and come up with something different every single time, you have to be willing to run wild with it. I think people are generally lazy about sound design, and just use the same fucking 3 basslines over and over again. For proof, just go to digitaltunes.net and scroll through the tunes, half must come from the same dude, but really everyone just has the same idea yet they think it is original.

[alphacat]

IMHO: You guys are all so close to the real crux, at least what I've discovered it to be lately in my own productions -

I agree somewhat. Part of the problem is textural. The computer sound is often shit. Thin, 2 dimensional. Digital. When you hit the limiter to get some volume for ghetto mastering, you end up with that horrible plastic computer sound. I think it's a definite part of the problem. The quest for loudness has started to give a similar sonic texture to a lot of music, even totally different genres. I spend a some time listening to chart music (I said listening to, not enjoying) and find that a lot of it feels almost identical.

Dubstep is plagued with a lot of amateur mastering jobs, too.

^ This (highlights in bold) especially on the mastering tip - good mastering can help smooth out a lot of harsh edges (but not all of them all the time) and is critically overlooked in the final general perception of a tune's quality. In fact, I'll mention this again shortly...

Oh christ. I hope and pray that the dubstep community doesn't end up descending into the same analog-vs-digital civil war that's plagued house and techno since computers were fast enough to emulate a synthesizer. Far too many people use "analog" as a missing crutch -- "if I had loads of expensive outboard gear my productions would be so great" -- bollocks they would. More like "if you were blessed with half an ounce of original thought..." ... It's not about production values or mixdowns. The issue is a lack of songwriting imagination, and that's not solved by tubes, saturation or tape hiss.

Again, see my caveat at the end about purist medium elitism and just using what works, whatever it happens to be. No, analog - or external signal routing in general - will not fix shit songs. Of course not! But the OP (mc wayne) opined that the similarity of sounds [viz. Albino presets vs. sampled sounds] was the main beef, no?

I think the quality-of-songwriting stuff is almost worthy of a separate discussion, because... well, because it kind of is - and it's related more to the proliferation of self-styled "producers" who think owning FL or Reason or whatever and trying to nail _____'s bass without trying to find their own sound also makes them an artist somehow. That's another problem entirely. But I interpreted the original post as a complaint about the generic tone/texture of much current dubstep.

This isn't some subjective "ooh I can't hear the difference in all this analogue nonsense" type thing - it's raw fact that if there's "unbelievable life, warmth, character" in tunes like Request Line or Anti War Dub or System or Haunted or The Judgement, it must be because Loefah, Mala, Skream, Benga and pals wrote music with life,warmth and character, not because of the fucking signal path.

Yeah, exactly. I can still remember Midnight Request Line and that sounds like a tinkle town plastic computer toy production, but it sticks because it has something going for it.

Ahhhh... except I must point out: the mastering jobs on these folks' tunes were most always fuckin' aces. Again, not that that's the end-all be-all in itself, but it is worth mentioning.

I think what's happening is a lot of producers feel like their music has to comply with the 'rules of dubstep', obviously music has to have some specific features to be labelled dubstep but there is a lot more to the genre then some people realise which is where all this same-as-this dubstep seems to be coming from.

I think the tyranny of 140 is one place this started, in a sense. I always namecheck these founding fathers but one more time - listen to Burial, Kode9, Loefah, Shackleton tunes from 4 or 5 years back: what did they all have in common that got them lumped under the umbrella term 'dubstep?' Well... actually they all sounded very very different from one another, including the BPM ranges in their songs. The unifying aesthetic element, sonically, was usually a deeper sense of space than its immediate forerunners in UK-G, grime, DnB, etc.

Problem is lack of riddim, lack of space, lack of hook, lack of originality.

These are earned skills, not things that just happen because you have the right gear or know a piece of software well. Certainly not because you're the coolest mufucka ever and sample horns from some old funk record..

This too, plus what wub said about what people are listening to. In the end the genericness problem has less to do with people using software and more to do with the fact that many use the same software the exact same way as everyone else, even to the point of out and out copping someone else's sound - and then hard limiting the tits out of it so we can hear the sameness quite loudly in all its derivative glory.

And again, this is my take just about the production side of things more than the songwriting side.

[wrexile]

I can't believe this has reached 5 pages...
Making music, be it Dubstep or whatever, should be fun. That's it, nothing more nothing less.
Other people who don't like what [person] has made should just not listen to it again. It shouldn't impact your life.
There's so many producers out there that there's bound to be stuff which is "structured" to their impression of Dubstep, there's going to be stuff which is influenced by the producers love of music.

I cannot understand producers who only listen to one genre of music. It limits pleasure in both just listening to good music, and it limits pleasure in making music.
All I'm trying to say is let it be - the only problem with Dubstep productions today are people who over-analyze the spectrum far too much.
People should just enjoy the music that they enjoy, be that making it, mixing it or listening to it

[Diddley]

2 much girlie music comin out these days. u guys where womens panties 2?

[FSTZ]

[grooki]

What is sampling going to solve? What about learning to make music properly, instead of just nicking your favourite bits off a thrift shop record? If you do that, chances are, the best part of YOUR music is going to be the sample you made of somebody else's music.

Innit? Innit though? Get me? inart?

DJ Shadow, RJD2 et all, untalented thieves then?

Do you think they use sampling as a CRUTCH? If we took all their samples away, would there be anything left?

How about we get back to why music all sounds the same. The original poster HAD A POINT, but his solution wasn't a good one.

Why does a lot of Dubstep sound identical?

i agree with this. lame thread though tbh. I guess I just bumped it.

[finji]

i don't think this thread is lame, though there a few lame posts. Found much of it pretty interesting tbh (especially from a novice producers point of view) cheers

[damagedgoods]

i agree with this. lame thread though tbh. I guess I just bumped it.

Constructive. What's lame about it?

[grooki]

i agree with this. lame thread though tbh. I guess I just bumped it.

Constructive. What's lame about it?

The statement by the OP and the following argument is the same old pow-wow about music. The same arguments every time - there are so many threads which have this argument in it, or something similar.

What the OP posted is another example of someone trying to diagnose "what is wrong" with people's music. Why do people have to do this? All the time.

All dubstep now is presets from VSTi's. that's why it all sounds the same

Does this need a response? Well, I guess it does. Not all dubstep is presets. It does not all sound the same. This person (and the many who post similar threads periodically) doesn't like the tracks that they are hearing and so has to go and proclaim that the very the very large and flexible genre dubstep (whatever this means now) has lost it's way and that they have the answer.

You can put that as your own opinion, but to put it out there as something objective is just nonsense.

Anyway I've been drawn into ranting myself. Why I really said it was lame was because it's the same old argument about "what's wrong with dubstep"

A similar argument is about the direction of dubstep:
"What's wrong with dubstep now?"
"I know what's wrong with it - too much midrange cack"
"No, midrange cack has pushed dubstep to great popularity"
"No, it's lost the purity that started the movement in the first place"
"You're just an elitist snob"
"You like mass-produced thoughtless crap"

The sensible ones always ask why people are so bothered by other people's music, and why don't you stop listening to the music you're complaining about and find the music you like?