to sub or not to sub? need some opinions.

[numbernin6]

Okay so I'm throwing this question out there to any producers that use a sub in their setup and to sound geeks in general. Never posted on this part of DSF so here goes:

I'm currently running 2 Dynaudio BM5a reference monitors on an M-audio Delta 192 soundcard. Monitoring with them has been an absolute joy (will never buy anything buy Dynaudio in the future) but sound below 55 hz is just lacking, especially since I like to hit low D or E on my subbass on some of my tunes.

So I'm torn between two options, 1) upgrade to the Dynaudio BM12a or BM6a mkii which I think reach down to about 40hz, or 2) add a subwoofer (BM9S) to my current setup. The subwoofer option sounds appealing but I'd like to hear some people's experiences about monitors with and without a sub. Have you treated your room to accommodate a sub? Is it a difficult transition?


thx in advance for your input

[btw I monitor in a small rectangular room (about 10 by 20 feet) with low ceilings.]

[Basic A]

They both sound like viable options, as long as you dont opt a sub thats going to completely overfill your workspace... Regardless, its going to have aa learning curve getting used to it, until I got a sub my monitors were pretty well done around 50, and you can here me switch to a sub enabled rig in my old tunes, hahaha... Best bet, would be to find a freind if you can with a similar size/spectrum sub, and try it in your space. If things become to thick, you might have to opt for either treatment, or consider the monitors.

I have to tell you to sway towards the woofer though, for the little my opinions worth, because with low end heavy monitors is going to come stange accents on the mids and highs, and from what I understand dynaudio are pretty mid crisp to beginw ith so to switch over 10htz, and possibly lose out on some hgih clarity, might not be worth it to just stay where you are, as a sub will def. bring in a much more noticable difference.

2cents from someone whos broke on sound gear. So take it as is.

[abZ]

Those BM6a's I think are basically the same as the ones you have except they have a bigger amp... I think. It is a tough question really. I think it is kinda difficult to mixdown with a sub unless you have your studio tuned perfectly. It doesn't sound like your room is ideal to me. I looked at those monitors you have and opted for the Yamahas because the low end is a lot clearer. You can use them with bass heavy music without a sub and still have an idea of what you are doing down there. I might say trade up for the bigger ones but I am not that familliar with them. Subs really... since you aren't working in a proper studio anyway you might save yourself some money and get a consumer sub for under 200. It isn't really all that necessary to have a matching reference sub because sub is well sub. I think another issue that I wrestle with is if I get a sub it's going to make making tunes a lot more fun but I am not really going to be able to use it during late night sessions because of people trying to sleep and whatnot and that is fine you can just turn it off but then you don't have a static reference. I probably didn't help a bit but those are my thoughts.

[numbernin6]

from what I understand dynaudio are pretty mid crisp to beginw ith so to switch over 10htz, and possibly lose out on some hgih clarity, might not be worth it to just stay where you are, as a sub will def. bring in a much more noticable difference.

can you explain this bit a little more? think i'm not reading your sentence correctly.

Subs really... since you aren't working in a proper studio anyway you might save yourself some money and get a consumer sub for under 200. It isn't really all that necessary to have a matching reference sub because sub is well sub.

honestly can't agree with you. spending $200 on a consumer sub over spending a grand on studio-grade quality is going to have some severe consequences to my setup. Matching dynaudios with some sloppy lowend would would be a disaster imo. but then again i can't speak with TOO much confidence because my experience with studio subs is super limited.

you're right about the 6s. I don't think it's worth selling the 5s and moving up just to the 6s. but the 12As look like they could be worth it. but impossible to find a showroom with these monitors

[abZ]

from what I understand dynaudio are pretty mid crisp to beginw ith so to switch over 10htz, and possibly lose out on some hgih clarity, might not be worth it to just stay where you are, as a sub will def. bring in a much more noticable difference.

can you explain this bit a little more? think i'm not reading your sentence correctly.

Subs really... since you aren't working in a proper studio anyway you might save yourself some money and get a consumer sub for under 200. It isn't really all that necessary to have a matching reference sub because sub is well sub.

honestly can't agree with you. spending $200 on a consumer sub over spending a grand on studio-grade quality is going to have some severe consequences to my setup. Matching dynaudios with some sloppy lowend would would be a disaster imo. but then again i can't speak with TOO much confidence because my experience with studio subs is super limited.

you're right about the 6s. I don't think it's worth selling the 5s and moving up just to the 6s. but the 12As look like they could be worth it. but impossible to find a showroom with these monitors

Yeah good luck with the showroom. Well let's put it this way if you spend 200 on a hi-fi sub versus 1000 for a reference sub I can guarantee you the difference is not worth 800 dollars. I mean you could get a lower priced studio sub made by someone else like Yamaha or KRK or something. The Yamaha one that goes with my monitors is like 350. It is reasonably priced, the only reason I probably won't get a consumer sub.

[LFpHUNK]

HAY GUYS WAT KINDA SPEAKERZ IS HE USING? I THINK DEY DA BOMZ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4rDC1kuHtc

[FSTZ]

I've been thinking about throwing a sub in my studio to compliment my event 20/20's.

I want it for when I dj and I'd turn it off when writing tunes.

[bokatordubstep]

i vote gopher a quality sub and tune it in with what you've already got.

and btw, ur a fuckin badmans, biggup.

[wirez]

Get a sub

[nowaysj]

Look, it is said that you can mix on hifi speakers, if you know the speakers well. I don't nec believe this, but roll with me.

So knowledge of your speakers trumps all.

Adding a sub is going to take some learning to figure out how it translates, but once you learn it, you can still make tight mixes.

But using a sub is a lot more FUN!

If you can learn it, why not have the fun?

I have a pretty shitty untreated space, though it's filling with junk, and I've never heard anything I've done on a proper system so who really knows, but I feel as though I get a far more accurate depiction of what is going on in the land down under than I did with just my 5's.

So get a sub, learn it, and have some fun.

[jsills]

i run 6" speakers and i still want a sub because those low lows just dont translate well and im basically guessing at my lowend levels. pain in the ass but i know my speakers so it works for me. so i dont see just upping to the 6's as being a real solution. that said your tunes bump like a mother as is so i can only imagine that if you add a sub into ur current setup it can only benefit.

[miscreant]

Whats your room like? Carpeted or flooring?

I've got the KRK 6's and the difference in them between my carpeted room at home and at my mates house where he's got a pretty bare, laminate flooring room is mental. They sound so much bassier in his room than in mine.

If you've got the cash I'd say get a sub anyway, good investment to make and although you might not NEED one you dont really NEED a lot of stuff used in production.

[wirez]

Whats your room like? Carpeted or flooring?

I've got the KRK 6's and the difference in them between my carpeted room at home and at my mates house where he's got a pretty bare, laminate flooring room is mental. They sound so much bassier in his room than in mine.

If you've got the cash I'd say get a sub anyway, good investment to make and although you might not NEED one you dont really NEED a lot of stuff used in production.

Personally I'd say a sub is a necessity in order to really hear those sub frequencies, instead of a small system representation... But Legend4ry has been proving me wrong with this theory lately, making amazing sub sounds on some £18 headphones?!?!

[Rigorous]

Imma have to go with SIlls on this one. I dont have a sub right now either, but switching speakers is always going to be switching speakers. There will always be a learning curve as far as learning your monitor / room combo and how to gauge it. Sub = more reference and the more you have to reference will always end up a plus if done right. I say go for it

[deadly_habit]

invest in treatment and some good cans (like a few pairs) before a sub imo

[numbernin6]

invest in treatment

I think this is why i'm leaning away from a sub. There's soooo much sound treatment issues when it comes to doing a sub. And monitoring with a sub on wood flooring is an absolute mess.

buying the sub would be the cheaper option as the 8inch monitors will be $$ but it seems like i would be endlessly tweaking my sub levels with a woofer.


i needa find a spot to demo these.... i wish i could just "rent" the sub i'm looking to get to see if it sounds right with my setup.

[AxeD]

Yeah the environment your in is very important. I have a pretty big sub in a small room
and with some freq's things just start shaking around. Would be nice if you could
try the equipment for a bit before buying indeed

btw like your tracks, big stuff!

[paradigm_x]

yeah, deadly beat me to it.

Pointless buying a sub of any brand unless you've quite heavily treated your room, the modes will kill anything approaching a flat response.

[serox]

My tip, dont bother with a sub.

All you need for sub bass in a track is a sine wave. Just stick that for extra weight and dont bother wasting time trying to get creative with sub freqs. Instead try and put your time into making a melody you can hear on standard speakers. Make a track that sounds good on shit speakers and then add the extra weight later.

I keep seeing people with these amazing sound systems at home with sub's etc. Their music is weak tho. The track is driven too much by low end stuff the track sounds empty when you hear it without the big subs. It is like they forget to keep the bass a little higher sounding and have gone all out and made a bassline out of just really low end stuff that disappears on other systems:/

Most decent speakers now days go low enough to be able to hear the room rumble and that should be enough imo.

[numbernin6]

All you need for sub bass in a track is a sine wave. Just stick that for extra weight and dont bother wasting time trying to get creative with sub freqs.

Disagreed. Sines and squares have different qualities in subbass land, so for those reading this, I advise quite the opposite: get creative!


But anyway, I cam here for monitor advice and not to discuss production techniques . Thanks for the input, lot of similar input by my producer contacts as well... I'm 90% sure that getting the BM12As are a safer bet than getting a sub. Anyone want to buy a pair of BM5As?