i have a problem

[shaneynclan]

look guys, i have a pretty serious problem when it comes to my music, and there is either one of two issues which i will explain here in a sec and ask for suggestions/feedback.
first of all:
i find it very difficult to judge the quality of my own tracks.
now here is my question:

i've been part of the internet production forum/msn online gig for a long time now, at least 5 years.
i used to be on soundclick back when it used to be good, though i mostly made trance back then.
i feel like i never really made any contacts, nor got any positive feedback/comments on my tracks.
in my mind there is probably one of two issues:
1. i suck completely and should give up.
2. no one knows who i am or any of the music i make, etc.

so the ultimate question is: do you have an issue with the same thing?
i see alot of you posting tracks, getting good comments from other users fairly regularly, which must make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
do you just have a network of people who listen to your tracks?
is it random comments sometimes?
do you think you suck?
should i give up?

please help.

[kaiori breathe]

I whore out like fuck, for lack of a better phrase.

I add every single person I see on soundcloud, you gotta give in order to receive I think. So I tend to comment everything I see (only the stuff I like, i'm not a total contact whore) usually people reply. I find there's a sort of 20:1 ratio. For every 20 people you comment you'll maybe get one back, but at the same time you'll get plays from most of the people you comment, even if they don't say something back. So that's good for bumping plays and comments. Takes a bit of work, but I find if you have a day spare, usually a sunday for me, that's your whore out day where you spend a couple of hours commenting and listening to other peoples' tracks.

As well as that, I find some people keep coming back to my page and I just naturally end up talking to them. I have a few friends now because of that and they're generally quite supportive of me as I am of them. It's again a mutual thing. Giving and receiving and all that.

Did my first collab with tripwire and that helped a lot with regards to the contacts thing, I know a few more people from this forum over AIM and MSN now because of that. The way I see it you dunno who on here is going to be big or even if they don't get massive they could end up scoring a lot of deals, so it's good to know everyone and have a good relationship with the people here (sorry if that sounds utterly self-serving I don't mean it that way, it's just a sort of truth that the people on this forum are as a general rule very talented and it would be a lie to say there aren't advantages to knowing them)

Also, the feedback threads here are quite good, so long as you comment on like 2 pages of tracks before you put up your sound-cloud link. People will mostly give you a crit on the condition you give them one too. It's just kinda the way it works. Self-interest. Not everybody is like that there are some guys who just pop in and comment things out of their own interest. But for the most part there's always going to be that mutual exchange.

As well as all that I have a fairly closely knit circle of friends and family who are really supportive, if my tracks are good enough in their eyes they make CDs with them on them and leave them at house parties and make everyone they know listen to them.

I tend to throw out a lot of downloads too. I put my stuff up on bit-torrent sites under the guise of a "mix pack" with loads of dubstep and just casually include one or two of my tracks. (putting your tracks in with porno seems to do well too, if you're not against such underhanded methods) Downloads spread so fast it's unbelievable.

I also found a track on you-tube once, so I thanked the guy who put it up, and now he's putting my stuff up on a regular basis, possibly just because I was nice to him and thanked him. I think he might not have taken the interest to put the other stuff up if I hadn't. Although I can't be sure tbh.

'Kaiori Breathe' is written on nearly every wall in Belfast now because of my graffiti/vandal (depending on how you see them) friends. So that helps too.

I've also been collecting a big ass favourites folder filled with dubstep blogs that I send my stuff out to which helps.

I also work as a music journalist so I'm constantly plugging my music and pushing for new contacts that way.

Plus being on every social networking site there is doesn't do any harm.

I add a lot of DJs to my social networking webs too, they're good people to have on your side. Getting in a few mixes never hurt anybody. So I tend to strike up conversations with a lot of DJs about town and stuff after their gig if they aren't totally rushed off their feet. Help them get their gear to their vans...etc. They're great people to know and extremely helpful in getting your tracks out there. Even if they don't play it live they might include it in a mix, which is just one more place for your stuff to get heard.

Dunno if any of that's helpful, but that's how I tend to get plays and get my tracks noticed and in mixes and what not.

Regardless, I doubt the issue is that you suck and should give up. It's probably more of something I see a lot on these forums and it's modesty. Everyone here is guilty of it bar a few. Everyone on these forums is terrified of putting their tracks out there because they're all so modest and want to put themselves down because it stops them having to accept they're actually amazing producers making amazing music and in that it means they don't have to feel bad if they fail or fall down. Modesty is a wasted value. It serves nobody. Ditch it's ass on the curb.

Also with regards to judging your tracks, screw being objective, it's for pussies. If you like your track somebody else will. I guarantee that.

EDIT: Just listened to your stuff on soundcloud, you're a quality producer, your tracks are good. Plug them immediately.

EDIT 2: You asked, "do you think you suck" the answer is yes, I do, I feel my production is shit and my tunes are generic.

Every person who creates music will always feel this way. It's natural. You pour yourself into a track and you hate it because it can never live up to your own standards or because it reveals too much of yourself or because it doesn't end up quite the way you wanted it. I think I'll always hate everything I write. I'm not going to listen to myself though because that's just the modesty talking. I was modest for years and got nowhere, was the best guitarist in my school, at 16 I was playing speed metal (cheesy I know) and had surpassed people in terms of technique and ability who had been playing for over 30 years but I never got noticed because I played it down and when people asked "i hear you're good at guitar, are you" I'd always reply "no, not really" even though i was amazing. So then other people got in bands before me and got EPs released and got to work with some great names and I missed out because I was an ass who hid my talents. Anyway, I don't play guitar that much anymore but I've moved on to dubstep and I'm not being modest any more because it's just a completely wasted trait. Nobody gains from you lying and underplaying your talents.

[tripwire22]

to tell u the truth ill be the 1st one to say i think i suck at production. but everyone keeps saying im real good for the short amount of time i been at it. im always stuck in a rut and my collab with kai really help me learn some things (1st collab as well kinda hope we make alot more)

idk if everyone knows who i am on this forum. i got alot of posts but i dont talk shit or make jokes like ever, which in real life i talk alot of shit and crack alot of jokes, but i feel like cuz im nice to everyone they get to know me. i have whyrez kaiori who i talk to the most for feedback and like 20 odd people i got to for feedback or always comment on my soundcloud.

i listened to the song in your sig its good man.

if you dont have aim yet get it now!

[nowaysj]

This kaiori's post in all its components and in its entirety just makes me want to puke.

And I had a big dinner.

===========================================================

I have more to say on op's post, but have to go help someone with something.

[kaiori breathe]

This kaiori's post in all its components and in its entirety just makes me want to puke.

pretty much everything i say seems to make you want to puke, meh.

[tripwire22]

This kaiori's post in all its components and in its entirety just makes me want to puke.

And I had a big dinner.

===========================================================

I have more to say on op's post, but have to go help someone with something.

i dont see the point in this nowysj so please calm down

[JBE]

Takes a bit of work, but I find if you have a day spare, usually a sunday for me, that's your whore out day where you spend a couple of hours commenting and listening to other peoples' tracks.

I do the same thing here. I usually pick a day, usually a day I have off and I take a few hours to just listen to tracks. I work nights so I usually don't get off work till around 10 am and I have to be back to work by around 11 at night so I don't really have a lot of time to split between different things I need to do. Which is why I usually have a huge post in the WIP and Finished Tracks threads on here every once in awhile cause I just pick a day and try to get at least 8-10 tracks in with some feedback. Then I go to other sites I use and now I added soundcloud to that.

To be honest, the very short time I've been on this forum I've gotten more feedback then I've ever gotten anywhere else.

As for thinking you suck, I agree with what Kaiori said on this. I think at some point every producer thinks they suck. I've heard interviews of big name producers say that they've never actually made a song that they've enjoyed as much as they do other people's music. I think that's just how it works. When you make your own tracks you want them to be perfect and you end up holding your own stuff to such a high standard that it's hard to live up to it. On top of that you've listened to it so many times during production that by the time other people hear it you've already out played it for yourself.

After listening to some of your stuff you definitely don't suck. I think it's just a matter of trying to get your stuff out to more people. It helps to have multiple resources for your music. Different forums, different music sites like soundcloud, soundclick, reverbnation, bandcamp. All these sites tend to have different communities and followers.

[Basic A]

Noways is just a general prick.

@kaiori... your on aim man? hit it up sometime

[kaiori breathe]

To be honest, the very short time I've been on this forum I've gotten more feedback then I've ever gotten anywhere else.

+1

[nowaysj]

i dont see the point in this nowaysj so please calm down

Kaiori's type of thinking is odious, and I would hate for other people to internalize this type of thinking.

[tripwire22]

i dont see the point in this nowaysj so please calm down

This type of thinking is odious, and I would hate for other people to internalize this type of thinking.

id hate for me people to act like a prick on here like you are right now.....

[nowaysj]

To OP:

When making art, you have to make choices, hundreds, thousands, millions of choices, those choices all together, in sum, make the piece. Your maturity as an artist determines how well you make those choices. If your choices are born of self doubt or insecurity the choices are likely to be bad or at least uninteresting. I really believe you have to try as hard as you can to remove yourself from the decision.

Don't make the outcome of the decision determine your self worth.

Once you begin to remove yourself from the decision making process, you can actually hear what is happening in the track, rather than hearing your own desires in the track. You can tell if a bass line is good. You've heard 10,000 good bass lines in your life, you can access those and compare the one you just made with them. You can tell if it's good. You don't need other people to tell you if it is good or bad or has value.

I listened to your sig track, it is pretty cool. It's competent. It's got some good flavor in there. Honestly though, in 5 minutes I will have a hard time distinguishing it from 1000's of other very similar tracks I've heard. Not trying to be negative, I'm trying to be positive. That kind of sound cloud commenting "killer drop dude" stuff is negative, in that it doesn't produce anything, doesn't create anything.

If you write good tracks, people will come to you, you won't have to go around spreading your name, essentially paying (in one currency or another) people to listen to your tracks. Did Skream have to comment on twenty tracks to get one comment back. Did anyone know who the fuck Burial was?

It's all about the quality of the music.

Other people can help you raise the quality of your work. A group of people who make at least similar music or who like some of the similar artists can help bring some objectivity to the analysis of your work. But you need a level of involvement far exceeding 20:1 strokeoffs. Hopefully you can meet some people here that match this criteria. There are a lot of knowledgeable people here, with a bunch of different tastes. Develop some real relationships, and I am sure the positivity will flow.

As to whether you should stop making music. Yes you should. Would that mean anything? There is no reward for making music.

If you like to make music, you will make music.


---

To put all that in perspective, almost every night I go to bed happy with some beat I'm working on, and wake up in dismay at what I hear. I relentlessly get trapped by ego. I haven't made a song in a long time. But I love making music, I can't help but do it. I will continue, whether anyone hears what I make or not. It is totally irrelevant.

I will do what I do because I am what I am.

[nowaysj]

id hate for me people to act like a prick on here like you are right now.....

I wish more people would behave as I am behaving on here right now.

[tripwire22]

id hate for me people to act like a prick on here like you are right now.....

I wish more people would behave as I am behaving on here right now.

im not gonna keep going with you dude ill let you have ur ego moment

[nowaysj]

Thanks bro!

[staticcast]

edit: double post

[staticcast]

To OP:

When making art, you have to make choices, hundreds, thousands, millions of choices, those choices all together, in sum, make the piece. Your maturity as an artist determines how well you make those choices. If your choices are born of self doubt or insecurity the choices are likely to be bad or at least uninteresting. I really believe you have to try as hard as you can to remove yourself from the decision.

Don't make the outcome of the decision determine your self worth.

Once you begin to remove yourself from the decision making process, you can actually hear what is happening in the track, rather than hearing your own desires in the track. You can tell if a bass line is good. You've heard 10,000 good bass lines in your life, you can access those and compare the one you just made with them. You can tell if it's good. You don't need other people to tell you if it is good or bad or has value.

I listened to your sig track, it is pretty cool. It's competent. It's got some good flavor in there. Honestly though, in 5 minutes I will have a hard time distinguishing it from 1000's of other very similar tracks I've heard. Not trying to be negative, I'm trying to be positive. That kind of sound cloud commenting "killer drop dude" stuff is negative, in that it doesn't produce anything, doesn't create anything.

If you write good tracks, people will come to you, you won't have to go around spreading your name, essentially paying (in one currency or another) people to listen to your tracks. Did Skream have to comment on twenty tracks to get one comment back. Did anyone know who the fuck Burial was?

It's all about the quality of the music.

Other people can help you raise the quality of your work. A group of people who make at least similar music or who like some of the similar artists can help bring some objectivity to the analysis of your work. But you need a level of involvement far exceeding 20:1 strokeoffs. Hopefully you can meet some people here that match this criteria. There are a lot of knowledgeable people here, with a bunch of different tastes. Develop some real relationships, and I am sure the positivity will flow.

As to whether you should stop making music. Yes you should. Would that mean anything? There is no reward for making music.

If you like to make music, you will make music.


---

To put all that in perspective, almost every night I go to bed happy with some beat I'm working on, and wake up in dismay at what I hear. I relentlessly get trapped by ego. I haven't made a song in a long time. But I love making music, I can't help but do it. I will continue, whether anyone hears what I make or not. It is totally irrelevant.

I will do what I do because I am what I am.

Post of the year.

@OP: Seriously dude. FUCK soundcloud feedback. Fuck feedback on forums. I mean this in the nicest possible way -- I've received a bunch of nice feedback through both channels which I'm genuinely grateful for because it certainly does make you feel warm and fuzzy inside. But when dealing with feedback it's important to distinguish between feedback from people whose opinions you value, feedback from people whose opinions don't mean much to you, and mutual backpatting -- and to care (or not) accordingly. Invariably, Soundcloud feedback falls into the latter two categories. I feel like I'm 14 and on Myspace again, with kids I don't know posting shit like "comment my pics and ill comment urs back". Positive soundcloud feedback is nice to receive, but ultimately meaningless. I care what I think about the tracks I've made, and what a small handful of my friends think -- friends whose views on music I genuinely respect and admire. I don't generally care what "people on the interwebs" think, unless I know for a fact that we have similar tastes and similar views about music in general. If I really like someone's shit, I'll send them a message.

If you want to push yourself further and progress to the next level, spend your time writing great music and then push it to labels who can bring it to a wider audience. As nowaysj said, your production is competent and I've no doubt that someone out there will be willing to release your material, which is much more of an endorsement than a couple of dozen "sick track d00d" comments under the SC waveform (probably from much lesser producers than you, at that). The people running said labels won't give a shit how many soundcloud comments you've got, honestly.

[SunkLo]

I think I agree with NoWayJose (but maybe his presentation could have been a bit friendlier) In particular about not determining your work's value by other people's opinions, and that the quality of your music should speak for itself.
I also understand where Kaiori's coming from. Promoting your music, especially on the internet is pretty cutthroat. There are so many artists out there and a large portion of them are making shit. To get your music into people's ears you have to push it a bit, and part of this is about making contacts who are going to want to listen to your music. No one's going to think it's good if they think you're a total penis. So it's a give and take. You obviously have to attract them with the music itself but a bit of ball buttering helps get it out there. Even if you get some bro who doesn't even understand your track to like it, he might pass it on to someone else who knows wassup and enjoys it purely for what it is and not because it's been marketed to them.

That being said, I wouldn't really trust Soundcloud comments as proper feedback, unless it's someone you actually know or trust in terms of musical opinion. Most of it is just mutual pole waxing. The musical creating process and the promotion process should be separate. Don't start trying to make music that you think will get you lots of listens or comments and junk like that. In fact you shouldn't be thinking that far ahead at all. You should try to remove your ego from the process as much as possible. You'll probably find it yields better results, at least in your eyes, which is all that really matters. At the end of the day if you're the only one who likes your music are you going to change it to compliment the tastes of everyone else? Hope not.



Edit: Static kinda beat me to it. I agree you should be trying to up your quality and push it to labels. That's a much a wider audience than the Souncloud butterflies.

[abZ]

To OP:

When making art, you have to make choices, hundreds, thousands, millions of choices, those choices all together, in sum, make the piece. Your maturity as an artist determines how well you make those choices. If your choices are born of self doubt or insecurity the choices are likely to be bad or at least uninteresting. I really believe you have to try as hard as you can to remove yourself from the decision.

Don't make the outcome of the decision determine your self worth.

Once you begin to remove yourself from the decision making process, you can actually hear what is happening in the track, rather than hearing your own desires in the track. You can tell if a bass line is good. You've heard 10,000 good bass lines in your life, you can access those and compare the one you just made with them. You can tell if it's good. You don't need other people to tell you if it is good or bad or has value.

I listened to your sig track, it is pretty cool. It's competent. It's got some good flavor in there. Honestly though, in 5 minutes I will have a hard time distinguishing it from 1000's of other very similar tracks I've heard. Not trying to be negative, I'm trying to be positive. That kind of sound cloud commenting "killer drop dude" stuff is negative, in that it doesn't produce anything, doesn't create anything.

If you write good tracks, people will come to you, you won't have to go around spreading your name, essentially paying (in one currency or another) people to listen to your tracks. Did Skream have to comment on twenty tracks to get one comment back. Did anyone know who the fuck Burial was?

It's all about the quality of the music.

Other people can help you raise the quality of your work. A group of people who make at least similar music or who like some of the similar artists can help bring some objectivity to the analysis of your work. But you need a level of involvement far exceeding 20:1 strokeoffs. Hopefully you can meet some people here that match this criteria. There are a lot of knowledgeable people here, with a bunch of different tastes. Develop some real relationships, and I am sure the positivity will flow.

As to whether you should stop making music. Yes you should. Would that mean anything? There is no reward for making music.

If you like to make music, you will make music.


---

To put all that in perspective, almost every night I go to bed happy with some beat I'm working on, and wake up in dismay at what I hear. I relentlessly get trapped by ego. I haven't made a song in a long time. But I love making music, I can't help but do it. I will continue, whether anyone hears what I make or not. It is totally irrelevant.

I will do what I do because I am what I am.

Yes I am smoking what you are packing bro

[deadly_habit]

find people honest and trustworthy on aim etc for feedback man
it's better to hear wtf is this this sucks than a bunch of brown nosers trying to get a 320 based off your name once it's established