'DJing' with Ableton ... your opinion?

[Sharmaji]

I like to think i'm all pro-envelope-pushing, sitting here re-mapping my apc, etc.

But i have absolutely no idea what i'd do with the bridge. I'm glad it exists, but both sides are so completely separate from each other in my mind. yeah, you can control midi bits w/ serato, but it's not a sampler per se. and yeah, ableton makes for a great djing enviroment, tho it's much better for live creation and re-creation.

so I find it really interesting. it's just not my personal battle to fight.

[abZ]

Yes people do think that mixing is hard. People in general are very ignorant to how easy it is to mix. It used to kill me when I'd see mix dj's beat out Q-bert in the mixmag poll for best DJ. Just hilarious...

Yeah but that shit is just a beauty pageant doesn't mean anything to me. The best dj's in the world you will probably never see because they are cute, funny or very friendly like me To make it in this business you have to run for office, actually being good at what you do has nothing to do with it. I sound a bit bitter but it is true even in the "underground".

[CBK81]

Ya I'm with you on that bro, just saying that people are indeed stupid. I remember very clearly the moment that I realized this. I had a conversation with someone who swore that when the dj was cueing up the next record they were actually making the acid bass lines and stuff from the record that was playing.

[abZ]

Ya I'm with you on that bro, just saying that people are indeed stupid. I remember very clearly the moment that I realized this. I had a conversation with someone who swore that when the dj was cueing up the next record they were actually making the acid bass lines and stuff from the record that was playing.

Haha yeah I know I was playing some brostep one night and a kid comes up to me afterwords telling me how great I was and how I was mixing in hiphop records at just the right moments. I just say thanks bro I don't want to break it to him that the tunes are just like that. Just one example of many.

[ruckus49]

in last months computer music dan le sac was talking about how he uses ableton live but he still makes an effort to put on a show. he mentioned using multiple outputs and controllers and was really emphatic about making your performance fragile enough so that screw ups can and will happen.

[Basic A]

Ableton kids are cheaters and thatsnot justified unless your a producer being forced to double as a dj.

ill go no further...

[Disco Nutter]

I'll post a quote:

A note from our favorite benefactor ” Dr. Reality Check“

Kids - With regards to sound quality - you need to keep in mind that your deaf, they are drunk and the sound system is in mono and distorted. In this kind of environment subjective listening tests go out the window.

This is from a Traktor vs Serato article on DjTechTools, but with a little more generalization it can fit the topic.

Generally, the playing medium is more important to the dj himself, the other djs and the people in the crowd that actually dig deeper than the casual listener or have preferences towards one or another thing.

It's a tough topic.



Jason

[Basic A]

But no seriously idc just learn to beatmatch too.

Its very rewarding.

[staticcast]

in other words: it's no fun.

Said from someone who has experience DOING it, or just has a judgement ABOUT it?

Cuz when I used Ableton I had HELLA fun, chopping up tunes, tossing in loops from other genres, using dub echoes on snares and sounds, taking only the best part of a song and mashing it with another awesome tune.

I used a MIDI controller and just worked the shit outta that fucker. Don't TELL me I didn't have fun, because I always did.

Oh come on, I said "it's no fun" and meant "I don't get much enjoyment out of it", don't get your knickers in a twist. Of course I wouldn't tell you what you do and don't enjoy. I've used it for about 4 years and played out with it a couple of times as a DJ, and am halfway through putting together a live set (which is another matter).

Also, "tension" from beatmatching? Are you DAFT? If there is any difficulty to beatmatching after about 3 months into learning DJing, then frankly, you SUCK at it. Beatmatching is a SKILL, and not a particularly creative or difficult one at that. Creativity goes beyond skillsets, and moves into how to put music together, how you express your thoughts, and what you are trying to say. If all you know how to say is "I can beatmatch", then I would be more entertained watching a friggin' mime.

Look man, this is the classic argument and there's no need to be a tool about it. Of course I'm not saying beatmatching is hard, please don't make this a "you must suck at DJing" debate. HOWEVER, it means you have to pay attention to what's going on, as it's happening, and you have more things on your plate than if you're syncing 2 tracks (see below) together with Ableton. Consequently I tend to find that mixing with Ableton makes me impatient, and my EQing is rushed and lifeless. But then, I mostly spin house and techno, where long transitions are the norm.

I will say tho, if anyone wants to use Ableton, stop thinking about it in terms of just 2 decks RIGHT NOW! If you don't do anything more creative than attempt to mimic the basic DJ setup, it WON'T be fun. You have UNLIMITED tracks (turntables), drum racks to create live drum fills, can loop anything, can chop up tunes and live remix/edit them on the fly, BPM or genre is not a limit anymore, you have unlimited effects...just using it for "2 turntables" is a travesty.

This is the crux of it. Using ableton to mix 2 or 3 tracks isn't fun. But the vast majority of the time, when I see someone mixing more than 2 or 3 tracks with Ableton, I just think there's too much going on and wish they'd play me some records instead. I guess this is subjective, but whatever. I'm fully aware of the possibilities that Ableton offers and I do think that they're exciting in principle, but in practice it seems to me that few DJs can really pull it off and most just end up sounding like kids getting excited over a clusterfuck of tunes and too many FX.

I'm not telling anyone what to play or what's "best"; if you can pull off an Ableton set that impresses me then all the better. I'm just saying that I've seen a lot of boing Ableton sets and I've seen a lot of overcooked Ableton sets, and very few that get the balance just right.

[Mad_EP]

I just can't believe that - after, what.. 5+ years of this same argument??? - people are still trying to pull superiority complexes on their method.

The DJ him/herself is all that matters - not the methodology. I agree - there are plenty of shitty Ableton DJs out there, but there are just as many (if not more) shitty vinyl DJs. Guess what - they are shitty because it doesn't matter what tools you give them, they will still suck. Shitty DJs are shitty DJs.

On the other hand - give a good DJ a reel-to-reel, a Fisher Price record player, and a broken walkie-talkie.. and they will still be able to rock a party.

I use Ableton cos it is convenient. I don't think it is superior, sure it can do some things that vinyl can't do... but vinyl can do some things that Ableton can't do. It's a wash in the pro vs. con. I use it cos I use it for my production, so it is handy. I know I could learn to beatmatch, scratch, etc as good as any other DJ out there... but I don't have the extra money and time for it just to try to prove myself to some messageboard trolls.. because in reality, it is only messageboard trolls who give a shit either way.

[Noizydan]

its as good a method as any - it's certainly more flexible than the traditionally boring and unimaginative two deck vinyl set up - especially with some good control devices. saying that, learning to beatmatch is good for your skillset and the skill comes in handy for other elements of production too.

tune selection is important if you want to fill a dancefloor - whatever you're using.

i see no reason why you can't use vinyl/cds and ableton (dj booth space permitting).

bottom line is when i go out it's nice to hear good (seamless) mixing - however it's done.

[djshiva]

@Static_cast & whomever else:

I don't mean to sound like a blowhard (I'm really not, in real life. Well, not always. ;p). I just get sick of this whole "debate", and if you look around on this forum (and this thread, it seems), there's enough luddites and cries of "Abletonz is cheating!!OMGZ!!!!", that I tend to jump on the defensive with a quickness.

I have spun records for over 15 years, and used Ableton for about 3.5 or so (back on Serato cuz I don't have enough time to prep for Ableton these days), and whilst I should be completely bored with the whole debate (and I am), I still can't help but get my panties in a bunch when people say dumb shit.

At the end of the day, a shitty DJ is a shitty DJ, regardless of medium, but it's not the medium that makes them shitty.

P.S. static_cast, I come from a techno background as well, so I like to make lots of things happen, without making it sound busy, but with just enough of that something that makes your brain fall out at some point in the night. LOL. To me, that's what a good DJ does. Subtlety combined with behind the scenes tweakery that makes you feel like humping a speaker in a hallucinogenic haze...or...er...something like that.

[Mad_EP]

Oh yeah... and...

Ableton kids are cheaters...

I was planning on playing one of the tracks you sent me on Monday's Sub.FM show...

I have no problem with playing tracks of producers who call me names - because all I care about is a good mix. However, if you would prefer me not to play your track because "I am a cheater"... I totally understand. Just let me know.

[Mad_EP]

... double post

[Recessive Trait]

live sets are one thing...

if we're talking strictly about dubstep then i don't think it really matters. indeed, ableton probably gives an advantage, as addressed earlier.

i do hip hop/trip hop and that kind of chilled breakbeat stuff. involves a lot of scratching in the mixing. try to do that with ableton. i wouldn't even do it with serrato.

i've never seen somebody truly rock out while using ableton. rather, it's checking emails all night, and the crowd is expected to dance? the dj should be able to interact with the crowd, feel what they want. i'm just not feeling ableton (apart from live sets).

[Assassin]

All I've got to say is, I prefer ableton djs to mix as if they were on decks. I absolutely can't stand mash ups. I want to hear songs properly not just two bars then a big metallic flanger followed by a fifty cent record with an acid house bassline.

Djing in all honesty is just about track selection, check out radio djs. They don't mix at all but their track selection is legit. (not commercial radio)

[WeBang]

Ableton kids are cheaters and thatsnot justified unless your a producer being forced to double as a dj.

ill go no further...

yes and no.....

yes in a sense that triggering one track to another is just gay.

NO in a sense that you can do so many things in a mix if you really abuse Ableton like you should.

Now the problem is Technology is growing for the DJ to:



I know that is DJ craze but really doesn't just have to be about turntablism. Dubstep DJs who rather DJ will start murding sets aswell when they can use combinations of shit like this. Not the DJs already don't but I think this will make ableton mixing alot more boring and instead use shit like ableton and serato togethor.

[abZ]

Saying it is cheating is a bit immature imo. Personally I am not even saying there is anything inherently wrong with djing with Ableton. I don't think I should have to point this out but the thread title says YOUR OPINION. I don't enjoy listening to Ableton sets normally. Just going by the sets I have heard. I am not going out of my way to listen to an Ableton set plain and simple. Good dj's > shite dj's / Good tunes > shit tunes / shouldn't even need to be stated anymore, that should be the universal truth that governs our board. Brostep sux / Ableton sux / stfu

[Sharmaji]

the gist i take away from this thread is that maybe it's a functin of geography, but: many of you need to see better DJ's in general.

Never seen a good ableton set? really?

mashups?

yikes.

[CBK81]

I just can't believe that - after, what.. 5+ years of this same argument??? - people are still trying to pull superiority complexes on their method.

The DJ him/herself is all that matters - not the methodology. I agree - there are plenty of shitty Ableton DJs out there, but there are just as many (if not more) shitty vinyl DJs. Guess what - they are shitty because it doesn't matter what tools you give them, they will still suck. Shitty DJs are shitty DJs.

On the other hand - give a good DJ a reel-to-reel, a Fisher Price record player, and a broken walkie-talkie.. and they will still be able to rock a party.

I use Ableton cos it is convenient. I don't think it is superior, sure it can do some things that vinyl can't do... but vinyl can do some things that Ableton can't do. It's a wash in the pro vs. con. I use it cos I use it for my production, so it is handy. I know I could learn to beatmatch, scratch, etc as good as any other DJ out there... but I don't have the extra money and time for it just to try to prove myself to some messageboard trolls.. because in reality, it is only messageboard trolls who give a shit either way.

Well stated.