Dealing with really low sub (and hangover tips)

[nowaysj]

I distrust "sweet spots" to be honest, I think if anyone ever finds a sweet spot for bass, it's probably just the room harmonics.

More often than not this is the situation. Why bass sweeps can find the sweet spot of just about any room.]

But with more complex synth programming than just a sine with an envelope, you will find sweet spot where certain confluences of factors produce a thicker tone.

[Simbaa]

G# is a badman, you can use this to your advantage as it shakes your chest, good for emotive impact if its one of the higher notes

[macc]

And Macc - you spoke about receiving amateurish tracks for mastering that had a clinical sub just hanging off of the bottom end. Can you talk a little more about this relative to what Sharmaji is talking about?

PRETTY PLEASE! This stuff would be very very helpful for us newbs.

Sharmaji always uses terms in different ways to me, so I'm not sure I understand him right. Just wanted to get that out of the way!

I think he might mean tension in terms of slight aggression, which could be attributable to harmonics ('edge') being added to a clean sine via the use of compression.

With regard to what I am talking about, cheaper speakers add edge due to their higher THD figures. So, you think you have that 'edge', but in actual fact all you really have (on a neutral/clean system) is loud sub that's making your speakers distort. Your tune sounds full and fat, but it's really not. Again, it's the one thing I'd suggest using an analyser for if you aren't sure.

As an aside to all this, while I agree on the one hand with the 'what's the point compressing a synthesised sine' crew, it has to be mentioned that a) the compressor you use and b) the way you use it, have a massive effect on the TONE of the bass (the harmonic signature, if you want to put it that way). That's the reason I would compress sines etc, for the sound it gives, not for anything else.

[nowaysj]

I'm trying to harmonize what you and sharmachameleon are saying. Think I need a little more input from the man himself.

But I don't know if you are accurately characterizing his use of 'tension', as your characterization (compression introducing harmonics) would still be audible on a smaller system at lower db.

[macc]

I'm probably not, it's true

Like I said, he talks a whole load of crap.... Eeerrrrrr, I mean, I don't understand him sometimes and it's all my fault

[deadly_habit]

Hangover tips? In MY bass thread? It's more likely than you think.

OP, seriously, what's the key of the tune? I find anything below D# often has trouble replicating on a good system. E1 is just above 41hz; you're gonna need an expertly-built system along with well-placed speakers in a nicely tuned club room to replicate much below that. adding some harmonics via distortion or wave selection can help, as can layering something an octave up.

D#1 and C#1. (talking about 3osc here.)

I was thinking about layering some higher notes aswell (think coki does this on officer). Like to stick with sines, filtered other waves don't sound all that great to me when you get that low.

I distrust "sweet spots" to be honest, I think if anyone ever finds a sweet spot for bass, it's probably just the room harmonics. No note is inherently phatter than any other is it?


Shit heres the tune in question with an unmolested master channel.
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76450640b91898a0/
time to save up for monitors i think

Breakage Q&A please!

he's already done one on here and on doa the grid


and thanks bob for correcting some of my drunken ramblings

[Sharmaji]

I'm probably not, it's true

Like I said, he talks a whole load of crap.... Eeerrrrrr, I mean, I don't understand him sometimes and it's all my fault

balls-deep innit, innit

so basically what i mean comes down to the sense of control that compression gives a sound. It's not just harmonic overdrive, like from an 1176-- super-low bass is such a huge-energy thing that its character can really be changed by this stuff.

OK say you've got a simple sinewave, the default in a sampler, etc. Let that run, essentially unprocessed in your tune, as the real low-down weight of the song. In a club it'll feel really full, maybe even 'warm' depending on the line it's playing and the rest of song But no matter what, it takes a bit for a 40hz sine to get up and running, the part can't really be all that rhyhtmic,and what you'll be left with is this ensconscing bass sound. Kode 9 likened it to being in the womb-- it surrounds you, it's soft, it's full. The actual wavelength of a low sine is HUGE, measureable in dozens of feet, and you can see the speakers move-- big motions, but smooth. It fills in the sonic spaces of everything else.

Now. Take the same sine wave and a add a good amount of compression and makeup gain. Compress for tone, sure, but you want a pretty transparent comp, maybe something LA2A-ish or a good plug. Compress like 10db off of your sub, keeping the attack and release slow so as to not induce really obvious distortion, and bring the gain back up. sounds similar, right?

IME, that kind of control creates an energy in the bass that's a lot more aggressive because it's a lot more consistent. Yes, harmonically you're probably shaving off some of the roundness of the actual square wave and introducing modulations that render it closer to a square, but watch big speakers playing a compressed sub-- the movement's different, it's all out, then looks frozen, then back. The roundness of the sound is less prevalent but the sound feels much more up-front- it's less ethereal, less enveloping, maybe a bit flatter, and more in-your-face.

TBH we're talking psycho-acoustics here and my experience may be very different from yours. But time and time again, in testing tunes on the road, i've noticed this. It's another tool in your arsenal as a hybrid artist/engineer, and another part your vocabulary in how you affect the listner and dancers.

and then there's buss compression...

[Sharmaji]

and some vitamin b12 before you hit the sack.

[deadly_habit]

and some vitamin b12 before you hit the sack.

[macc]

IME, that kind of control creates an energy in the bass that's a lot more aggressive because it's a lot more consistent. Yes, harmonically you're probably shaving off some of the roundness of the actual square wave and introducing modulations that render it closer to a square, but watch big speakers playing a compressed sub-- the movement's different, it's all out, then looks frozen, then back. The roundness of the sound is less prevalent but the sound feels much more up-front- it's less ethereal, less enveloping, maybe a bit flatter, and more in-your-face.

With you here, 10000% Not that I stand and watch the cones in a club, I'm usually at the bar

Which reminds me... a bloody mary and two raw eggs. You'll be throwing up so hard you won't have time to worry about a hangover

[nowaysj]

thx broz

[Snafu]

I just kicked the multiband compressor out of my master channel. It seriously messed up my sub. With the multiband it created some sort of distortion effect that sounded crap and made the sub loose power. Now I just have some light EQ and soft limiting on my master. Its a bit less loud but the sub sounds nice and sits well. Is there any way to get a multiband to work with subs? I might just have to use one that lets me deactivate the LOW bands. It seems to add a lot of punch to my midrange.. I would like to keep it in there. (Ohh yeah, Im using a pure sine from massiv)

Ohh and thanks again for all of this knowledge!

IMHO, IME, etc: multibands = best left to mastering engineers and people who really know what they're doing, otherwise they do more harm than good. I wouldn't put one on a sub. If you wanna compress different bits of your bass synth separately, I'd use different synths on different channels.

EDIT: you should be able to deactivate the Low band on your multiband, though, no?

Yep I guess youre right. I used the cubase 5 multiband. Its not possible to turn off the low freq band. But my sub sounds waaay nicer without it. Now I just have some very light limiting on the master.

Thanks!

[antipode]

IME, that kind of control creates an energy in the bass that's a lot more aggressive because it's a lot more consistent. Yes, harmonically you're probably shaving off some of the roundness of the actual square wave and introducing modulations that render it closer to a square, but watch big speakers playing a compressed sub-- the movement's different, it's all out, then looks frozen, then back. The roundness of the sound is less prevalent but the sound feels much more up-front- it's less ethereal, less enveloping, maybe a bit flatter, and more in-your-face.

Yeah that's what I was going for. El-B mentions it in that computer music (i think) video that was going around a while ago.
whatcha reckon about the clip i posted?

thanks for the useful insights so far bass/pissheads.

[macc]

Would you fecking believe it

Village pub quiz today (I live in the countryside these days ). All questions with a drinking theme - I literally LOL'ed and came back here to post.

Question 3:

'Why did the Egyptians put a cabbage on their forehead?'

[macc]

And no it wasn't to make their sub fatter

[stappard]

And no it wasn't to make their sub fatter

headaches innit

[Sharmaji]

Which reminds me... a bloody mary and two raw eggs. You'll be throwing up so hard you won't have time to worry about a hangover

Virgin Blood Mary mix is my drink of choice on a flight that's been prefaced by too much booze. the raw eggs tho... jesus.

folks seem to swear by miso soup tho.... which, to me, smells like raw eggs. So maybe we're onto something?

[antipode]

hold tight the eggsteppers