As of 2007, no smoking in UK clubs...

[thc]

I think the governments point is that this aint private business no more (with the passive smoking ting now being realised) and once it gets into public arenas (clubs etc) then the peoples rely on the government to do what's fair.

i dont see why it's not private business and is instead a "public arena." And if you're gonna rely on the government to do whats fair, i feel sorry for you.

i see your point that for some it may compulsion/addiction rather than choice, but i dont think that's for you to decide. i dont think you know what goes on in the minds of other people.

[doomstep]

man, this is really de-press-ing ... calling this kind of law facist is going to far yeah I agree wif that, but this kind of law is one of the first steps ... I'm not saying the brown-shirts will be on road next week but the more you allow state control of the inviduals rights the closer we get.

If you can't see that the state has no right to interfere in your induvidual rights in this way then ... we are a long way gone, & the march towards facism continues. Its not about smoking in pubs / clubs - that is up to each pub / club operator and its patrons to decide not Blair / Bush / Howard ... (one of) the next step(s) is banning abortion, or certain forms of contraception ... which is wots happening here in Australia right now, as our govt. seems to think its mandate includes forcing the far right christian belfs of its party members onto the whole population.

These are not just little islolated events occuring in a vacum, if you don't protect yr rights then you lose them, its very simple, its happened before it will happen again.

[amen-ra]

I think the governments point is that this aint private business no more (with the passive smoking ting now being realised) and once it gets into public arenas (clubs etc) then the peoples rely on the government to do what's fair.

i dont see why it's not private business and is instead a "public arena." And if you're gonna rely on the government to do whats fair, i feel sorry for you.

i see your point that for some it may compulsion/addiction rather than choice, but i dont think that's for you to decide. i dont think you know what goes on in the minds of other people.

"People" do unfortunately rely on the government to do what is "fair"- you being a prime example. And yes i feel sorry for them also

And it is not for me to decide what people think- i made it clear it is up to them (this is the whole reason i bought up the compulsion/freedom debte). Dont ever think Amen-ra is trying to tell people what 2 think- Amen-Ra is trying to build an understanding.

In a public space we have other people to consider, now, for us to decide the parameters within these social places would seem like we're throwing our weight about and would cause conflict between us and others. So me deciding i am free so I can smoke if i want might result in someone else being offended, scared, disgusted etc- not good

The goverment makes the rules which regulate our play- simple- in an area where there is many different people congregating, care needs to be taken to ensure we are not encroaching upon other peeps when we exercise our freedom- the government or other institution then comes with these rules to attempt to create this harmony.

Amen-ra is not saying that this happens in actuality and he is definitely not saying that the government have done a good job of it. the governmnt has come in simply because there's enough evidence that in public domains, people that don't smoke are being forced to inhale smoke which is harmful to them. These individuals canot decide themselves that smoking is going to be banned- it's for the government to do- it's too public for individuals to decide

And just so there's no confusion again- Amen-Ra is not saying this is a good system or that this is an ideal state of affairs- he's just sayin that this may be HOW IT IS. The system might be shit but that shouldnt stop u from trying to understand it

"Understand the system to rise above the madness"- Super T

Check it; why do the government want to ban smoking? Is it because they want to take your freedom away? Smokers say "yes", non-smokers say "no".

"I dont rely on the goverment to do what is fair. The government are being unfair"-
"I dont rely on the government to do what is fair. The government are taking away my rights"

Nothing will work for you

[amen-ra]

man, this is really de-press-ing ... calling this kind of law facist is going to far yeah I agree wif that, but this kind of law is one of the first steps ... I'm not saying the brown-shirts will be on road next week but the more you allow state control of the inviduals rights the closer we get.

If you can't see that the state has no right to interfere in your induvidual rights in this way then ... we are a long way gone, & the march towards facism continues. Its not about smoking in pubs / clubs - that is up to each pub / club operator and its patrons to decide not Blair / Bush / Howard ... (one of) the next step(s) is banning abortion, or certain forms of contraception ... which is wots happening here in Australia right now, as our govt. seems to think its mandate includes forcing the far right christian belfs of its party members onto the whole population.

These are not just little islolated events occuring in a vacum, if you don't protect yr rights then you lose them, its very simple, its happened before it will happen again.

I feel you mate. But understand that people violate each other's rights jus as much. Are you working at ridding yourself of the internal government??

Che Guevara was a "freedom fighter" but he violated other peeps on the way- where you gonna draw the line??

I lost faith in the government years ago- i've now got to point where i expect them to violate my "rights" but never will they take away my SIGHT. When we get involved in action-reaction we jus become robots and our sight is lost.

Peace

[thc]

"People" do unfortunately rely on the government to do what is "fair"- you being a prime example.

i dont know where you got that idea. i think it should be obvious that highly distrust the government.

In a public space we have other people to consider, now, for us to decide the parameters within these social places would seem like we're throwing our weight about and would cause conflict between us and others. So me deciding i am free so I can smoke if i want might result in someone else being offended, scared, disgusted etc- not good

The goverment makes the rules which regulate our play- simple- in an area where there is many different people congregating, care needs to be taken to ensure we are not encroaching upon other peeps when we exercise our freedom- the government or other institution then comes with these rules to attempt to create this harmony.

I dont see why we cant "play" one way in one club, and "play" another way in another club. all without the government being involved.

Check it; why do the government want to ban smoking? Is it because they want to take your freedom away? Smokers say "yes", non-smokers say "no".

well i'd say it's mainly to win the votes of the non-smokers. it's also one step towards more authoritative control, which is good for them.

"I dont rely on the goverment to do what is fair. The government are being unfair"-
"I dont rely on the government to do what is fair. The government are taking away my rights"

Nothing will work for you

while i didnt say either of those "quotes", i do agree with them. you're going to have to provide a better arguement than "Nothing will work for you."

[doomstep]

no Amen-Ra not at all ... I don't smoke. Never have. Its not the issue.

... the state is not taking away my freedom by banning smoking in public places - this is true - but it is setting up a routine whereby all our civil liberties will gradually be worn away ... this is already happening.

I understand the system mate, but if you think that the govt. has the interests of induvidual citizins at heart, sorry.



' ' the state provides nothing for the community which the commuity could not provide for itself ' '

[amen-ra]

"People" do unfortunately rely on the government to do what is "fair"- you being a prime example.

i dont know where you got that idea. i think it should be obvious that highly distrust the government.

In a public space we have other people to consider, now, for us to decide the parameters within these social places would seem like we're throwing our weight about and would cause conflict between us and others. So me deciding i am free so I can smoke if i want might result in someone else being offended, scared, disgusted etc- not good

The goverment makes the rules which regulate our play- simple- in an area where there is many different people congregating, care needs to be taken to ensure we are not encroaching upon other peeps when we exercise our freedom- the government or other institution then comes with these rules to attempt to create this harmony.

I dont see why we cant "play" one way in one club, and "play" another way in another club. all without the government being involved.

Check it; why do the government want to ban smoking? Is it because they want to take your freedom away? Smokers say "yes", non-smokers say "no".

well i'd say it's mainly to win the votes of the non-smokers. it's also one step towards more authoritative control, which is good for them.

"I dont rely on the goverment to do what is fair. The government are being unfair"-
"I dont rely on the government to do what is fair. The government are taking away my rights"

Nothing will work for you

while i didnt say either of those "quotes", i do agree with them. you're going to have to provide a better arguement than "Nothing will work for you."

If u dont rely on the government they cannot take anything away from you was my point i suppose.

Yea maybe they want votes- their intentions are not my concern- I kno they out for themselves and their kin.

My arguement is stop expecting the goverment not to take your rights away- if they aint got your interests at heart then how can u complain when they take your "rights" away?? Taking your rights away is standard behaviour for someone who doesnt have your interests at heart.

Doomstep- I'll say it's a standard ting for the government to take away your civil liberties because at the end of the day they're suspicious of me and you and thc. My whole point is; dont expect anything else. This is wat I mean by understanding the system (understanding being the opposite of "fighting", "arguing against").

And the community quote was wicked- but in reality it's not going to work until we return to a tribal lifestyle!!

I think many of my posts are misunderstood.

Not everyone mistrusts the government though man, but i do think more people are distrusting of them (and rightly so). If it seemed like I was saying the government have their citizens interest at heart then I apologise (although this could b true for a handful of MPs- please pay atention to the word "could")

When I said people rely on them what I shouldve said is that non-smokers cannot prevent smokers from smoking in their faces, they'd have to rely on the government to help them out (please notice the word "them"), which it appears they've done

[woodscience]

welcome to the rest of the world. It sucks.

[thc]

amen-ra, so you're saying we should just lay back and take it since they're gonna do it anyway?
i think if your rights are being taken away, you should do everything in your power to prevent that.

[amen-ra]

I remember a non-smoker telling me that smoking when your around others is like slapping a stranger in the face but obviously it's being done in a more "socially" acceptable way.

We all kno cigarettes are poisonous innit- even if mildly

"It's OK to smoke around people, it's not alright to lace their food with non-fatal doses of poison"

And please peeps i am not claiming I know it all- I'm always open to new shit. There's jus so much contradiction out there that it seems none of us are solving anything for ourselves or eachother

"For every head that was cut 2 more appeared"

Peace thc, Peace Doomstep

[thc]

so you're just returning to your original arguement of "it's bad for you and other people, therefore it shouldnt be allowed," and just completely disreguarding everything doomstep and I said.
like i keep saying, i dont see the problem with some clubs allowing smoking, and some banning it. you can choose to only go to clubs where smoking is banned, and the smokers can go to the clubs that allow it. why does your belief have to be forced upon everyone?

[amen-ra]

amen-ra, so you're saying we should just lay back and take it since they're gonna do it anyway?
i think if your rights are being taken away, you should do everything in your power to prevent that.

Nope- I'm saying form your own government without "taking over" the country.

And also look into the difference between "power" and "rights". We all have the power to do things but not neccessarily the right. I can only speak about my rights when i understand the relationship I have with my creator and the rest of creation. Only then can I talk about my "rights". If I have no Knowledge of Self then what I perceive to be my "right" could be more detrimental to me and others than I know. That might sound like religious/occultist waffle and again I apologise but this is the crux of it i feel. I'm not really willing to go into it too deep here coz I;m only jus coming to terms with it myself.

It's a long way to go but we can do it

Fuck the government, fuck the police.

We gotta shine our own light. We should stand up for ourselves as long as we understand that our true power and freedom lies within (again apologies for the hint of New Ageism in this) and that nobody can take that shit away from us.

[thc]

well it's unclear what your position is now and you dont seem to want to properly debate with me. and now you're bringing religion into this...

i dont think there's anything more i can say to you.

[amen-ra]

so you're just returning to your original arguement of "it's bad for you and other people, therefore it shouldnt be allowed," and just completely disreguarding everything doomstep and I said.
like i keep saying, i dont see the problem with some clubs allowing smoking, and some banning it. you can choose to only go to clubs where smoking is banned, and the smokers can go to the clubs that allow it. why does your belief have to be forced upon everyone?

I thought me you and doomstep had gotten passed the cigarette ting- the debte is much wider right?

I wasnt trying to disregard what u and Doomstep have said at all. That post was for the peeps that are still thinking about cigarettes- it's us suttin to think about innit. if i got info (as opposed to beliefs) I'll make it available- not trying to force nuttin man serious

And cigarettes being a poison isnt my belief i think they actually do have some poisons in them bro on a real. Dunno- maybe I'm wrong

[rickyricardo]

One of the things I'm failing to see in this thread is when smoking suddenly became someone's "right"? When I think of what my "rights" are, I think of the being to choose a representative government, live where I want, worship whatever religion I want, etc. So when did smoking also become someone's "right"?

The freedom to choose to smoke is a right, but smoking wherever you want to is not. I have a similar freedom to masturbate, but that doesn't mean I can just whip it out at the movie theatre and go to town. I also have the right to free speech, but I do not have the right to yell "fire!" in a crowded public place.

Rights are only such to the extent that they do not impede on someone else (something Amen-Ra mentioned, earlier). Apparently, a segment of the public felt that their right to exist in a (somewhat) healthy environment was being violated by ppl smoking. So they lobbied their gov't officials and the rules were changed. I'm sorry, but that's not facism....that's democracy...and it doesn't always work to your favor (I have to put up w/ Bush, don't I?)

[thc]

I thought me you and doomstep had gotten passed the cigarette ting- the debte is much wider right?

well it's specifically about this smoking in clubs issue. but it's also about the overall issue what the government should and shouldnt have control over.

not trying to force nuttin man serious

well when you are trying to make everyone not smoke in clubs, it seems like forcing to me.

And cigarettes being a poison isnt my belief i think they actually do have some poisons in them bro on a real. Dunno- maybe I'm wrong

yeah, cigs do have bad stuff in then, but i dont think the government should tell me i cant use it. i think i am an adult and can decide on my own.

[amen-ra]

well it's unclear what your position is now and you dont seem to want to properly debate with me. and now you're bringing religion into this...

i dont think there's anything more i can say to you.

Shit yea maybe we on different pages. I think I jus went a bit far there as well

One thing we can all agree is that the debate goes way beyond cigarettes!!

Holy shit i've spent a whole night on the internet- waseguy!!!

Gone

[amen-ra]

One of the things I'm failing to see in this thread is when smoking suddenly became someone's "right"? When I think of what my "rights" are, I think of the being to choose a representative government, live where I want, worship whatever religion I want, etc. So when did smoking also become someone's "right"?

The freedom to choose to smoke is a right, but smoking wherever you want to is not. I have a similar freedom to masturbate, but that doesn't mean I can just whip it out at the movie theatre and go to town. I also have the right to free speech, but I do not have the right to yell "fire!" in a crowded public place.

Rights are only such to the extent that they do not impede on someone else (something Amen-Ra mentioned, earlier). Apparently, a segment of the public felt that their right to exist in a (somewhat) healthy environment was being violated by ppl smoking. So they lobbied their gov't officials and the rules were changed. I'm sorry, but that's not facism....that's democracy...and it doesn't always work to your favor (I have to put up w/ Bush, don't I?)

Yes man- i like this piece here. I'm glad u understood the angle.

thc- u can choose to smoke if u want but once u know that it is a poison and u still choose to do it then this surely becomes the wrong choice? I know what you're going to say- it is your right to. but the government aren't saying "you're not allowed to poison yourself anymore"- they're saying "you're not allowed to poison yourself AND others" I dont think this can be classed as having your rights taken away from you.

Talking about having a right to poison others is like telling Hitler u had a right to kill Jews. ok that might seem wild but it comes down to the same point; exercising your perceived "rights" at the expense of other peoples "right". Hitler had the "power" to do that not "the right".

The Greek serpent Hydra- "for every head that was cut-off two more appeared"

the Hitler example was purely to highlight the difference between rights and power- i'm not saying it's EXACTLY the same ting.

Definitely gone

[thc]

if you guys are just gonna ignore everything i say, then just quit posting.

[rickyricardo]

if you guys are just gonna ignore everything i say, then just quit posting.

Not ignoring you, bro. My reply was to the collective posts in this thread rather than quoting everyone individually. I see your point about where the role of government should be limited, and to an extent, I agree with it.

However, I don't think I could ever bring myself to embrace a system of laissez-faire libertarianism, which is what you seem to be endorsing...or maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

FWIW, I'm of the belief that the larger society has just as much capacity for cruelty and incompetance as the national government, so ideally a balance has to be struck. In a nutshell, this is the history of every modern nation: The government shaping it's people while people collectively shape the government.