Detecting tune key

[kaiori breathe]

For say an acapella I just run my way chromatically up the piano till I find the first note - then I play around till I find the right key.

Wouldn't it be much easier to find the key of the instrumental tho?

Yea instrumentals are a lot easier to work out I find, there's more going on harmonically so you're you've more to work with usually. What track do you want to know the key of anyway? Just out of curiosity

[zitanb]

For say an acapella I just run my way chromatically up the piano till I find the first note - then I play around till I find the right key.

Wouldn't it be much easier to find the key of the instrumental tho?

If you had the instrumental - I think so. Concept is the same - find a couple of notes, and work from there.

I was just talking about the case when I have a straight acapella and I don't have the instrumental.

Big Up bro.

[kyle g]

First up, love this thread. Have also been wondering about this, with regards to dj'ing more so. I always wonder how dj's mix in key, and how important it really is. I've only been djing for about a year and a bit, and i cant listen to a song and say what key its in, i can sometime guess another song that will go well with it, then i'll later check on chemical records website(not sure how accurate it is) or mixed in key. If i was going to record a mix I would use mixed in key, but surely big dj's dont plan their entire set using mixed in key? How would they go djing back to back? anyway im really interested in this music theory, i really want to understand it all and it does seem pretty confusing but i think back to what i knew 6months ago when i first started trying to make tunes, and to what i know now, i think i've learned so much thats its probably possible to understand all of this stuff in the future!

I agree with Plasticsun, without any theory whatsoever, you're just diddling around. Do you want your music to be the product of diddling? That's like getting a degree in science by guessing answers on your multiple choice exam.
Every little bit helps get you closer to the point where you can actually design the music and shape it the way you want it harmonically and rhythmically.
Once you get to the root of it all you realize how simple it is.

Major scale, most other scales are just modes of that, chords are built by playing odd intervals aka the scale with every second note skipped 1,3,5. Add on a 7 for a 7th chord, continue counting upwards for more extensions. Most of the different variations on chords come from different modes of the major scale, basically instead of starting the major scale on the first note(say we're in C major, C,E,G.B), start on the second and build a chord off that(D,F,A,C). You get a -7 chord, a minor chord with a natural six if you want to keep going into the upper extensions. Continue this way for all notes in the major scale and you'll get all the chords you'll hear in the vast majority of music that isn't jazz or experimental.

Easier way to understand it is on a piano. Just make a c major triad (c,e,g) and move it up one note at a time through the scale (all the white keys) Since not all the intervals in the scale are the same distance apart, you're going to get different chords on each note.

Without going into harmonic and melodic minors, diminished whole tone scales etc. there's only one scale per key per song, all the chords you can build are either built off the root note of the key/scale or off one of the other notes (you can think of that as modes) I know most people are gonna be like "wtf are you talking about dude that's not simple at all" but just know that it's not as complicated as you think. Once you realize that scales and chords are the same thing (chords are just playing a set pattern starting on different notes of the main scale) everything clicks into place.

How all this bullshit relates to finding the key of a song: If you have say a minor 7th chord followed by a major 7th chord a half step up (let's say B,D,F,A then C,E,G,B), you can identify those chords as belonging to the Phyrgian and Lydian modes of the major scale, the modes that are build from starting on the 3 and 4 of the major scale. Then it's just a matter of counting down a 3rd from the B chord to arrive at G Major, the parent key of the song. Makes shit a lotttt easier.
I know a lot of this in unnecessary and more useful from a production standpoint, but I just wanted to explain how some background theory will make it very easy for you to do seemingly difficult things like figuring out a key or chord progression of a song or writing your own.


My apologies to everyone that had to wade through all that and didn't get anything. To properly understand you'll need someone to take you step by step slowly through all the background stuff that I might have hopped over to keep this post brief ( yeah right it's already a damn novel! Sorry, short as I can get it) Lots of resources on the intertubes you can read up on.

tl;dr Music theory is helpful for everything. Although it seems complicated at first, once you get how it all ties together, it's very simple.

Like i said, im really interested in learning the theory behind music, scales, chords, keys etc. Where would you reccomend is a good place to start? I have thought of getting piano lessons, but i dont really have the time, im getting a midi keyboard soon, so maybe i could do home schooling via a youtube tutorial. But will that teach me about hearing notes, and understanding scales? What would you recommend to get started? So far I know the major and minor scales, and like you said the chords with in that scale are 1st 3rd and 5th notes, or 3rd, 5th and 7th etc (maybe?).

[Phigure]

step 1) download Mixed in Key.
step 2) use.

Or you learn to recognize keys and you have a skill that lasts you the rest of your life.

[kyle g]

step 1) download Mixed in Key.
step 2) use.

Or you learn to recognize keys and you have a skill that lasts you the rest of your life.

agreed

[SunkLo]

Like i said, im really interested in learning the theory behind music, scales, chords, keys etc. Where would you reccomend is a good place to start? I have thought of getting piano lessons, but i dont really have the time, im getting a midi keyboard soon, so maybe i could do home schooling via a youtube tutorial. But will that teach me about hearing notes, and understanding scales? What would you recommend to get started? So far I know the major and minor scales, and like you said the chords with in that scale are 1st 3rd and 5th notes, or 3rd, 5th and 7th etc (maybe?).

The best advice I can give you is probably what to study and in what order so you won't be confused.

You'll want to get an understanding of intervals and how to invert them. This will help you with coming up with different voicings of chords.

Then learn all about key signatures, which is basically describing what parent scale the song is played in. The basic concept is pretty easy, memorizing all the sharps and flats is incredibly boring. You don't have to have them all perfectly memorized, as long as you understand the intervals in a major scale you'll be able to figure it yourself.

After that, building chords and chord formulas. You've already got the basis of this down, you just stack thirds on top of one another for the most part. You'll find it useful to know how to spell out chords though and know exactly what it is you're playing.

In tandem with learning chords you should look up church modes. This is left out of a lot of basic theory programs because it's really practical in jazz improvisation and many don't think it's necessary to the budding musician. However if you learn this at the same time that you're developing an understanding of chords and you understand how each mode has a chord that is built from its root note, not only will chord theory make a lot more sense, but when it comes to composition you won't be so confused with harmony. Like I said the modal approach is what a lot of jazz improvisers use as it helps them to easily move from different chords, progressions and keys. Really useful way of thinking.

After that you'll want to explore different chord progressions and how they work. Just explained a lot about this in this thread. Bookmark that ish and come back to it if you like.

At this point though you're well past basic theory. Once you get the linkage between scales and chords down, you'll be able to write out all the harmony you want.

If you google each of these things you'll find loads of tutorials on them. You could always just pick a theory site and go from front to back but if you learn things in the order above you'll have a really solid foundation of harmony. You'll probably notice that I didn't mention anything about rhythm. You'll want to supplement all this with some lessons on that but most of it will just be notation which isn't really that useful for someone who doesn't need to play other people's music or transcribe their own. With your sequencer you'll be able to work things out just by visually drawing in the piano roll. However, you'll find topics like syncopation, shuffle, swing, triplets and other tuplets invaluable for any kind of groove. This will require some of the basic notational knowledge so you'll want to learn it at some point. You will most likely find it easier to concentrate just on harmony first which is why I recommended jumping around a bit instead of doing all the lessons from a particular site in order.

Some places might not explain something in a way you understand so just keep googling till you find someone who's teaching compliments your learning style.


Geez my posts have all been of epic length lately. Giving peoples' scroll wheels a workout

[Plasticsun]

Excuse my ignorance, but by detecting tune key, do you mean for your own tune when producing, or for other tunes when DJ'ing? because when DJ'ing, theory cant really help you out, you just need to be able to hear if the two tunes fit.

[daft cunt]

Excuse my ignorance, but by detecting tune key, do you mean for your own tune when producing, or for other tunes when DJ'ing? because when DJ'ing, theory cant really help you out, you just need to be able to hear if the two tunes fit.

For DJing. And yes it does help very much to know the key so according to the Camelot system you have a pretty good idea of which tune will make a nice and easy transition and which one won't. More infos about this here.
While the MIK software (and all other alternatives) is inaccurate making it completely useless due to the random factor, the wheel is a massive time saver. Some people think it's cheating or killing the fun. For me the fun doesn't come from spending hours to know which tunes go well together but to make wicked mixes

[kyle g]

Like i said, im really interested in learning the theory behind music, scales, chords, keys etc. Where would you reccomend is a good place to start? I have thought of getting piano lessons, but i dont really have the time, im getting a midi keyboard soon, so maybe i could do home schooling via a youtube tutorial. But will that teach me about hearing notes, and understanding scales? What would you recommend to get started? So far I know the major and minor scales, and like you said the chords with in that scale are 1st 3rd and 5th notes, or 3rd, 5th and 7th etc (maybe?).

The best advice I can give you is probably what to study and in what order so you won't be confused.

You'll want to get an understanding of intervals and how to invert them. This will help you with coming up with different voicings of chords.

Then learn all about key signatures, which is basically describing what parent scale the song is played in. The basic concept is pretty easy, memorizing all the sharps and flats is incredibly boring. You don't have to have them all perfectly memorized, as long as you understand the intervals in a major scale you'll be able to figure it yourself.

After that, building chords and chord formulas. You've already got the basis of this down, you just stack thirds on top of one another for the most part. You'll find it useful to know how to spell out chords though and know exactly what it is you're playing.

In tandem with learning chords you should look up church modes. This is left out of a lot of basic theory programs because it's really practical in jazz improvisation and many don't think it's necessary to the budding musician. However if you learn this at the same time that you're developing an understanding of chords and you understand how each mode has a chord that is built from its root note, not only will chord theory make a lot more sense, but when it comes to composition you won't be so confused with harmony. Like I said the modal approach is what a lot of jazz improvisers use as it helps them to easily move from different chords, progressions and keys. Really useful way of thinking.

After that you'll want to explore different chord progressions and how they work. Just explained a lot about this in this thread. Bookmark that ish and come back to it if you like.

At this point though you're well past basic theory. Once you get the linkage between scales and chords down, you'll be able to write out all the harmony you want.

If you google each of these things you'll find loads of tutorials on them. You could always just pick a theory site and go from front to back but if you learn things in the order above you'll have a really solid foundation of harmony. You'll probably notice that I didn't mention anything about rhythm. You'll want to supplement all this with some lessons on that but most of it will just be notation which isn't really that useful for someone who doesn't need to play other people's music or transcribe their own. With your sequencer you'll be able to work things out just by visually drawing in the piano roll. However, you'll find topics like syncopation, shuffle, swing, triplets and other tuplets invaluable for any kind of groove. This will require some of the basic notational knowledge so you'll want to learn it at some point. You will most likely find it easier to concentrate just on harmony first which is why I recommended jumping around a bit instead of doing all the lessons from a particular site in order.

Some places might not explain something in a way you understand so just keep googling till you find someone who's teaching compliments your learning style.


Geez my posts have all been of epic length lately. Giving peoples' scroll wheels a workout

Thanks Mate! I got some learnin ahead of me. Much appreciated.

[bilsner]

Learn intervals

learn what a 5th a 4th a 6th a 7th sounds like

This really, as it will help you listen to the resolution of the melody (the bit where it leads back to the root note) and that will give you your key when it's not as simple as taking the first note of the melody. 5ths, 7ths, 4ths and 2nds are common intervals to resolve to the root in many melodies, the 5th and 7th being particularly strong , they make you feel like you NEED to hear the root note, they create tension that will be a give away when finding a key.

A strong melody will spend a lot of time on the root and the 5th commonly and will either venture from the root to a resolution before repeating the phrase again or perhaps the other way around. Unless it's some weird ass maths music or brainac jazz (don't bother trying with that shit). things like this should give it away p quick.

[proximityeffect]

i think some of you are SERIOUSLY over-complicating things...

...its not rocket science, there are ONLY 12 possible keys in the western system

...based purely on the combination of accidentals used (sharps/flats - or "the black keys" for those of you with no musical training), it can ONLY be the major scale of that particular key or its relative minor.

...given that the majority of electronic/dance music is written in a minor key, that narrows it down even more.

...failing that, buy a chromatic tuner and just fucking hum the root note into it.

and if THAT'S too difficult, then give up now, you're tone deaf and should probably pick a different career path

[bilsner]

i think some of you are SERIOUSLY over-complicating things...

...its not rocket science, there are ONLY 12 possible keys in the western system

...based purely on the combination of accidentals used (sharps/flats - or "the black keys" for those of you with no musical training), it can ONLY be the major scale of that particular key or its relative minor.

...given that the majority of electronic/dance music is written in a minor key, that narrows it down even more.

...failing that, buy a chromatic tuner and just fucking hum the root note into it.

and if THAT'S too difficult, then give up now, you're tone deaf and should probably pick a different career path

Just a guess here but I think the OP is talking about more than just finding the key of some basic dubstep wobble. He's been doing some music theory stuff on the forum so he may be searching for the key of more complex melodies ?

[proximityeffect]

Just a guess here but I think the OP is talking about more than just finding the key of some basic dubstep wobble. He's been doing some music theory stuff on the forum so he may be searching for the key of more complex melodies ?

dubstep wobble? ...the timbre of the bass sound used has absolutely no bearing on the key...

we're talking about the pure MUSICAL CONTENT of a tune, not the sonic characteristics...

furthermore, the key of a tune is intrinsically linked to the root bass-line, regardless of what the top end's doing...

key of more complex melodies??? WTF?!? ...if the melody was in different key to the bass it would sound like absolute shit...

...and if its chordal harmony you're ACTUALLY talking about, well that's a TOTALLY different kettle of fish

[bilsner]

Hmm, you seem to be misunderstanding what I am saying and pretty keen to have an argument about it. To be fair I had just finished a hellish night shift and was not expressing myself well. I've no intention of shitting all over the OP's thread so I think I'll pass on further comment

[SunkLo]

Weird ass maths music or brainiac jazz... I quite like the sound of that

[victoryaloy]

...its not rocket science, there are ONLY 12 possible keys in the western system

...based purely on the combination of accidentals used (sharps/flats - or "the black keys" for those of you with no musical training), it can ONLY be the major scale of that particular key or its relative minor.

yeah.. a lot of people look at a keyboard and see all those keys.. really there is only 12!!

I would like to add tho that harmonic minor is quite frequently use in dubstep.. I've also heard tunes using phrygian and dorian.. most of the time its as simple as major and minor.. but not always