Tune is -6db quieter than chosen reference tune... Is it OK?

[EM Fields]

I'm currently making a 2-step garage-type dubby tune somewhat in the vein of 'Pangaea - Router'. I say somewhat because my drums & bass have a similar feel and style but I have more melodic elements and vocal samples going on in a slightly busier Flying Lotus kind of way rather than a Pangaea minimal kind of way...

That said, I've been using the CD version of 'Pangaea - Router' from 'Stepper's Delight Vol. 2' as a reference to compare my mix with.

I'm quite happy with my mix so far, it's probably the best I've ever done to date!!

BUT my tune is quite quiet!!

My tune has -3db of headroom but I need to turn the Pangaea reference tune down to -9db in order to match the overall volume of my tune so I can A/B with my tune at a comparable volume.

Of course, I understand that my reference tune has been mastered so it's not an Apples to Apples comparison...

But still, there's a -6db difference between my mix and the mastered Pangaea reference tune... Is a gap this big meaningful?

Is my tune going to end up -3db quieter than Pangaea's tune if I get my tune mastered?

Thanks in advance for all helpful guidance...

[SunkLo]

When you say 3 dB of headroom I assume you mean the peaks are hitting at -3dB? When you level match Router with your track how do they compare in terms of dynamics? Does yours sound more dynamic or are the peaks higher than Router's? This would mean your track would need to be limited 6dB in order to match Pangea's which could be quite a squash depending on how compressed the mix already is.

If you can't really judge the difference in dynamics, grab a vu meter with a crest reading and you'll be able to see where the average volume is and the difference between that and your peaks. The crest value basically measures the dynamic range above the average. You could compare your track to your reference track and measure how dynamic they are. If there's a big difference, you'll probably just want to use some compression. Otherwise it could be problems like masking and clashing frequency ranges which would require a remix and some eq.

Really everything depends on the track. If it's very dynamic and needs that extra space to accommodate the extra instruments then it's probably best to leave it be. Since Pangea's track is more minimal he could be able to get away with less dynamics and still have punch. You can always throw a limiter on the master and see what it takes to get it as hot as the reference track. Might sound squashed or it might sound fine. Really at the end of the day, if you have a nice clear punchy mix it'll sound nicer than a heavily limited one, 3dB isn't much to fret over. A DJ will just turn it up, that's what their job is.

[Wrigzilla]

You've got to decide what you want from the final sound of your tunes: loud but with minimal dynamic variation or lots of dynamic subtly but quiter.

I prefer the latter option for most of my stuff (unless I'm doing some agro dnb). I'm afraid the only right answer is the one that sounds the best.

Also

3dB isn't much to fret over. A DJ will just turn it up, that's what their job is.

[diagrams]

My tune has -3db of headroom but I need to turn the Pangaea reference tune down to -9db in order to match the overall volume of my tune so I can A/B with my tune at a comparable volume.

...from this im assuming you have limited any erratic peaks in your sounds as you're talking about comparable volume - but that would be somethng to double check
and from the wording of your post im assuming you have approached your mix with sensible gain structuring as outlined in that informative moneyshot thread

so without hearing the tune, im guessing you need to focus on the following for starters

problematic frequency clashing (so further eqing)
arrangement (choice of sounds)

and then if you are not related to Bruce Swedien
compression/dynamics shaping/further limiting/layering/saturating/more compression/ etc etc

[Sharmaji]

y'all worry about tune volume way too much, though i must say-- this concern is making everyone aware of what mastering can do. Up next, i can only hope that this means folks will develop ears for good mastering vs. bad mastering.

a good mix is a good mix, whether or not it hits -6db RMS. if your tune is quiet when you play it out, turn it up. if it's dark, add some eq. As a DJ you do this to mastered tunes, so why not do the same for unmastered tunes?

if your tune sounds weak and empty-- fix it in the mix.

hi five to the Bruce Swedien shoutout-- badman is a badman.

[EM Fields]

Thanks for the feedback!!

To clarify, yes I meant my peaks are hitting at -3db. Mix doesn't sound weak to me at all at comparable volume. Was just concerned about the volume difference which, yeah, when all is said & done would probably be about 3db.

I'm not using any limiting because a) I want depth & dynamics in this tune and b) from much of what I've read, I came away thinking that limiting is something that one should avoid during mixing stage, being maybe more of a mastering tool better used by people who know how to use it better than me (also, they probably have better limiters). Maybe I'm wrong?

I have used "sensible gain structure" in so much as I've stuck to the general outline and philosophy expounded by Macc & others in the gain structure / mix moneyshot threads. Found them a couple months ago and found them very very helpful. As such, I have Kicks hitting at -8db, snares at -9db (drum bus at -8db) and bass at -10db. That said, the drums & bass alone got me running right up at -3.2 db in total at the master channel.

All other sounds I've added (of which there are quite a few) I've been very careful to carve out their own space in the frequency spectrum through eq'ing / filtering and panning/positioning within the stereo field. All sounds other than drums & bass have amounted to an additional -0.2db, hence my grand total of -3db. I guess most of it fit in the space between drum hits & bass hits...

I do have fair number of "melody" instruments going and so I have a reasonably full-sounding mix... But I'm happy overall with the balance between elements.

Truth be told, my main loudness constraint really seems to be the loudness of my drums... I don't think I know how to get my kicks and my snare any louder without exceeding 8db-9db their without using limiting and losing depth / dynamics. I have been trying to avoid doing that... Neither compression nor saturation nor distortion seem to help.

In fact, I just removed the bus compressor (waves ssl) from my snare bus because, even at settings so slight that the needle was barely indicating any compressor activity, I felt it was still sucking dynamics from my snares, making them sound flat and blunt while shaving only 0.1-0.2db from overall amplitude... Not a fair trade!!

I have not compared Dynamic Range with 'Router' as suggested by SunkLo, so I'll definitely do that and see what I learn!!

Maybe my expectations were unrealistic to begin with? My tune is kinda like Pangaea-Router meets Flying Lotus-Cosmogramma in reggae-land... But Router is loud and snappy but very minimal while FlyLo Cosmogramma is busy & sonically rich but overall quieter and not as punchy...

You guys have me thinking maybe my mix is supposed to be exactly where it is... I guess I can't have a mix as loud as Pangaea's when I have a fair bit more going on in my tune like Flylo...

Ah well, If I'm lucky and I've done a decent mixing job, maybe an ME would be able to squeeze out an extra db or two beyond just turning the whole thing up +3db to reach 0db...

Encouraging to hear + or - 3db isn't a big deal, though... Wasn't sure as I never had a tune mastered or pressed and have never dj'ed in my life

Thanks for the feedback to my question, gentlemen!! Additional input always welcome, too!!

[macc]

Mix doesn't sound weak to me at all at comparable volume.

There's nothing else to worry about

I'm not using any limiting because a) I want depth & dynamics in this tune and b) from much of what I've read, I came away thinking that limiting is something that one should avoid during mixing stage, being maybe more of a mastering tool better used by people who know how to use it better than me (also, they probably have better limiters). Maybe I'm wrong?

Limiting is a very valid mix tool. As with anything else, so long as you are doing good things and not damage, then it's a good way to keep things in check and control occasional peaks. It's when you limit the arse off every channel it starts causing real problems. To put it another way, it is possible to use a limiter subtly

I have used "sensible gain structure" in so much as I've stuck to the general outline and philosophy expounded by Macc & others in the gain structure / mix moneyshot threads. Found them a couple months ago and found them very very helpful. As such, I have Kicks hitting at -8db, snares at -9db (drum bus at -8db) and bass at -10db. That said, the drums & bass alone got me running right up at -3.2 db in total at the master channel.

All other sounds I've added (of which there are quite a few) I've been very careful to carve out their own space in the frequency spectrum through eq'ing / filtering and panning/positioning within the stereo field. All sounds other than drums & bass have amounted to an additional -0.2db, hence my grand total of -3db. I guess most of it fit in the space between drum hits & bass hits...

That's exactly what I was on about in that thread, about 'all the rest is just parsley'.

Truth be told, my main loudness constraint really seems to be the loudness of my drums... I don't think I know how to get my kicks and my snare any louder without exceeding 8db-9db their without using limiting and losing depth / dynamics. I have been trying to avoid doing that... Neither compression nor saturation nor distortion seem to help.

In fact, I just removed the bus compressor (waves ssl) from my snare bus because, even at settings so slight that the needle was barely indicating any compressor activity, I felt it was still sucking dynamics from my snares, making them sound flat and blunt while shaving only 0.1-0.2db from overall amplitude... Not a fair trade!!

To be honest I find this incredibly refreshing. It seems so rare that people opt NOT to do processing, generally preferring to do more. 'Maybe if I put another compressor on, that will fix it'

Top schnizzle.

I have not compared Dynamic Range with 'Router' as suggested by SunkLo, so I'll definitely do that and see what I learn!!

The master of Router (LOVE the tune) I have is possibly from a different source to yours, but if not then it's not a hugely loud tune. It was done at Dubplates and Mastering in Germany I believe, and it sounds goooorgeous. A little quiet but very dynamic and with plenty of bass - perfect for the track. A properly excellent job IMO! The other side is one I use to impress visitors with my subs

I dunno why I mentioned this other than I love the tune

Maybe my expectations were unrealistic to begin with? My tune is kinda like Pangaea-Router meets Flying Lotus-Cosmogramma in reggae-land... But Router is loud and snappy but very minimal while FlyLo Cosmogramma is busy & sonically rich but overall quieter and not as punchy...

You guys have me thinking maybe my mix is supposed to be exactly where it is... I guess I can't have a mix as loud as Pangaea's when I have a fair bit more going on in my tune like Flylo...

Sounds like your tune is in exactly the right place to me, so perhaps you can

Great stuff

[wormcode]

My tune has -3db of headroom but I need to turn the Pangaea reference tune down to -9db in order to match the overall volume of my tune so I can A/B with my tune at a comparable volume.

If the mixes sound leveled and balanced when comparing like that then I wouldn't worry too much. Louder isn't better.

[Sharmaji]

compressing & limiting your drum buss won't kill dynamics if you do it well. I compress for tone and punch, and then limit (if i need to) for control.

never underestimate the power of make-up gain as well. use a compressor w/ a wet/dry knob, get it sounding overcompressed and pumping w/ fast attack and a relatively fast release, put on automatic makeup gain, back the wet/dry balance back to 100% dry and start dialing some in-- see what that does for you.

drums are, by their very nature, super-dynamic. If you have a busy tune w/ lots of drums in it, you need to prioritize which elements get the available dynamics. your kick and snare need the most, probably... things like pads and really up-front synth leads don't really need any. Even elements that you want to have pump in and out, you'd be amazed that you can take 10db out of their dynamic range and still keep that feeling.

otherwise, yeah-- if your tune is hitting -3db and feels balanced to you, it's in the right spot.

[EM Fields]

Thanks for feedback, Sharmaji, Macc & Wormcode!!

Especially encouraging to hear from you Macc that I'm hopefully taking many of the right precautions to get a decent mix... Of course, no one but me has heard it yet, so I hope others will think so too

Sharmaji, not sure I have any decent compressors with wet / dry mix function but will look and will definitely give your compression suggestions a shot!! I've just begun to get the hang of basic compression so I have a lot to learn there!! Any particular compressors in Logic or Waves Gold bundle you can recommend for this method? Will look myself too...

I generally use the Waves SSL Bus Compressor on my busses and its controls / options are fairly simple / limited (which is probably why a compression noob like myself is comfortable using it).

If you can dial in amount of compressed version to mix with dry signal within the compressor itself then isn't that basically parallel compression at the local level? Am I understanding correctly?

BTW - On my CD version of Steppas' Delight 2 (Soul Jazz Records), Router is track 13 (last track) on disc 1. It's a compilation of tunes previously released as vinyl singles on a variety of record labels. There are no individual track mastering credits given, only an overall CD mastering credit (Jason at Transition). So I'm guessing Souljazz had the tunes mastered as a group for this CD and this may be a different 'Router' master than, for example, the original Hessle masters for Vinyl & Download.

I bought this CD comp just because it had Router on it so I could rip a wav to reference my mixes with. Prior to this, I only had a 320 MP3 of the tune that I got from a friend which definitely had a quieter, softer and overall mellower sound than the CD master. I was actually surprised at how loud & cracking the drums are on the Souljazz CD version, after being used to the mellower Hessle 320 MP3 version...

Learned a lot from your posts both here & on DOA / the Grid over the years, Macc!! Many many thanks!!

[Capture pt]

I like sensible threads.

[Sharmaji]

Thanks for feedback, Sharmaji, Macc & Wormcode!!

Sharmaji, not sure I have any decent compressors with wet / dry mix function but will look and will definitely give your compression suggestions a shot!! I've just begun to get the hang of basic compression so I have a lot to learn there!! Any particular compressors in Logic or Waves Gold bundle you can recommend for this method? Will look myself too...

for drum buss work, i really like the stillwell rocket.

logic's compressor has a wet/dry mix in the drop--down menu. also, set the output distortion to 'soft' on drums and see if things get funkier.

[SunkLo]

Yeah +1 on limiters being useful apart from squashing things. As long as you're careful they can help a lot. Also the SSL is somewhat of a character compressor, for utility duties you might want to use more of a surgical compressor or limiter, maybe thrown on after the SSL to catch anything that gets through and bring it down a tad. A few dBs of peak reduction won't have a noticeable effect on most things but it will add up to some extra loudness. Sounds like you've got the mix in the right spot though. In a few years when this loudness war dies off your music will still sound nice and listenable compared to the rest of the material from "The Dark Years for Dynamics"

Also your copy of Router most likely has been squished a bit, like you said to fit with the rest of the tracks on the CD. Maybe try to grab the original release to use as a more dynamic reference. In fact comparing the two different versions would be great for comparing where a mix could go with different mastering.

And yes, Sharmaji's wet/dry technique is the same as parallel compression. If you don't have a compressor with a mix knob you can just set up a buss with a compressor on it and mix between them.

Edit: thanks for reminding me Sharmaji, Im going to use the Rocket on the bus of this track Ive been working on. I seem to get focused on one companys folder in Reaper and forget to try my other plugins
Lately Ive been shooting out Antress and Softube for the analog crown, with some help from T-Racks.

[Sharmaji]

the rocket's fantastic for in-your-face compression; the built-in low end sidechain, circuit overdrive and parallel functionality are great. I use it on drums and vocals, rarely much of anything else as it doesn't do transparent at ALL. but when you want the pump, it's fantastic.

[nowaysj]

Lately Ive been shooting out Antress and Softube for the analog crown, with some help from T-Racks.

Which of each?

=====

A lot good advice in here, confirmation of a lot of concepts that have been well taught here on dsf production.

But can we get a little practical application? Like op posts up the mix, and some of the heads give a critique/advice? This is not really to help OP, but to help all of us who have been learning conceptually, but would love to actually hear the practical application of these gems of wisdom?

I know some of you do this as a profession, and you've given so much already, but please consider giving just a tad more. I believe this would be very helpful.

[SunkLo]

Lately Ive been shooting out Antress and Softube for the analog crown, with some help from T-Racks.

Which of each?

FET, CL1B, Trident from Softube
Just grabbed the Antress pack and have been trying out the LA2A and 1176 emulations. At one point though I was getting some random ringing from the 1176 clone I think. Had to remove it and reinsert it.

So far Id have to hand it to Softube, I just really love using that FET compressor. The Antress plugs do the trick as well from the bit of time Ive used them, and its great that they are free.

Also, I tried out the amp room from Softube on my guitar and ACTUALLY got a nice guitar tone. Through a poop M-Audio Fast Track too! Was quite surprised, usually the amp simulators still sound a bit sterile, especially with the guitar going through a shit interface.