can someone please teach me how to properly use a limiter?

[Recessive Trait]

i know i know i know - moneyshot thread. have you tried looking for an answer to a specific question in that thing? so bear with me - i read through some of it but my question was not addressed...

i finally got a label to agree to release some of the jerking and heaving noise i call my music, and so it is time to make sure that my mixes all peak in the -3 to -6db range, as addressed in the above thread.

i think my mixes are pretty good, and drums + bass + most noises/synths = about -3db, usually, but some of the synths peak at around -3db themselves, and thus for brief instances the master level might jump into the red.

i believe this problem can be solved without drastically altering the sound or perceived volume of the synth with limiting (or is it compression - i am admittedly completely in the dark in both these regards). can someone please take me by the hand and tell me how to get a synth that is mostly peaking around -6 to-8db (but has peaks up to -2 or -3db) to consistently peak at -8db without drastically altering the sound.

also, what is the best freeware limiter (or compressor as the case may be)?

or should i just take the volume of everything down 3db or so?

[macc]

A compressor reduces stuff above the threshold by a certain amount, and starts and stops as fast and slow as you like.

A limiter (in the sense most comonly used round these parts) stops signals exceeding a certain point, the threshold. It starts instantly and stops very fast.


A lot of it depends on the particular sound you're trying to control. If it's an ambient pad that slowly warbles up and has a random warbly bit that pushes it over, you might find slower (release) compression might do the job. You can squeeze the sound politely but firmly Those sorts of sounds show the distortion from fast, aggressive limiting very easily.

If it's a percussive/rhythmic sound with a sharp, fast attack, then a limiter might be more in order. A normal compressor might be too slow to hold that peak in place, and being so fast you tend not to hear the distortion very much at all.

It might be that a little of both works best - it depends on how 'peaky' the signal is etc etc etc

Neither option should change the sound dramatically though, if done right

[Recessive Trait]

so, while waiting, i rendered out one of the tracks after lowering the volume of each element by 4db. then i played the limited version, then turned my speakers up by 4db and they sound pretty much exactly the same.

at first i thought this would be a huge pain in the ass, going through and turning everything down in each song, but it looks like it might be easier than trying to get my head around compression and limiting. i kind of understand what you said, macc, and i kind of don't, and i do recognise that every song and every sound are different, but i have no idea what i'm doing with those tools.

posts i read in the moneyshot thread from both macc and sharmaji seemed to indicate that i might be better off just turning everything down, so that might just be what i do. the ME will make it louder, right?

[SunkLo]

Well yes but if you have something with erratic levels within the mix, you'd do better to fix that track on it's own instead of letting the mastering engineer try to fix it in the final stereo wav. If you've got something that you notice is peaking a lot just throw a limiter on it, bring the threshold down and see what happens. It will tell you how much gain reduction it's applying so you can make sure you're not overdoing it.
The W1 Limiter is a clone of the Waves L1 and is supposed to be pretty good.

[macc]

so, while waiting, i rendered out one of the tracks after lowering the volume of each element by 4db. then i played the limited version, then turned my speakers up by 4db and they sound pretty much exactly the same.

at first i thought this would be a huge pain in the ass, going through and turning everything down in each song, but it looks like it might be easier than trying to get my head around compression and limiting. i kind of understand what you said, macc, and i kind of don't, and i do recognise that every song and every sound are different, but i have no idea what i'm doing with those tools.

posts i read in the moneyshot thread from both macc and sharmaji seemed to indicate that i might be better off just turning everything down, so that might just be what i do. the ME will make it louder, right?

Kind of the point of that thread is that if the tune is already done, then turning down the master fader is fine.

BUT

It's better - for reasons spelled out in that thread - that you just start everything lower in the first place, as early in its respective signal path as possible.


So this thing is probably better done in the mix rather than mastering, if you think it's a problem. But if you just like the way it sounds now and bollocks to the numbers, then just turn it down and send it like that

[Sharmaji]

if you turn down the elements and the mix stays out of the red and you're happy with it-- sorted.

pads are great to play around on w/ compressors and limiters, especially ones that oscillate. see how much you can limit an oscillating pad before it distorts, and see how your perception of the oscillations changes... like, if it originally had about 10db between the loudest and quietest parts, but now only has 2 or 3-- does it sound the same? different?

or macc's example of a slowly-evolving pad-- try some slow, low-ratio compression, see what that does for you. if you can't hear it working but it says it is-- there you go. dynamic control at its finest.

brickwall limiters are much easier to learn to use than standard compressors, as there's less for you to fiddle with-- you either turn up the gain or turn down the threshold, and booyah-- you're limiting.

[JigSaw]

if you turn down the elements and the mix stays out of the red and you're happy with it-- sorted.

pads are great to play around on w/ compressors and limiters, especially ones that oscillate. see how much you can limit an oscillating pad before it distorts, and see how your perception of the oscillations changes... like, if it originally had about 10db between the loudest and quietest parts, but now only has 2 or 3-- does it sound the same? different?

or macc's example of a slowly-evolving pad-- try some slow, low-ratio compression, see what that does for you. if you can't hear it working but it says it is-- there you go. dynamic control at its finest.

brickwall limiters are much easier to learn to use than standard compressors, as there's less for you to fiddle with-- you either turn up the gain or turn down the threshold, and booyah-- you're limiting.

just following along here, the OP mentioned keeping the mix below -3 or -6 for an ME, and you mentioned as long as its out of the red it's good. i'm self-mastering now (thankyou macc) with a high degree of success staying right on or below 0, but is -3 or -6 like.. "optimal"?

*when i say optimal i'm refferring to when a track gets to a production mastering stage, what would be optimal for the sound sages to bring my track to eargasmic levals

[serox]

i know i know i know - moneyshot thread. have you tried looking for an answer to a specific question in that thing? so bear with me - i read through some of it but my question was not addressed...

i finally got a label to agree to release some of the jerking and heaving noise i call my music, and so it is time to make sure that my mixes all peak in the -3 to -6db range, as addressed in the above thread.

i think my mixes are pretty good, and drums + bass + most noises/synths = about -3db, usually, but some of the synths peak at around -3db themselves, and thus for brief instances the master level might jump into the red.

i believe this problem can be solved without drastically altering the sound or perceived volume of the synth with limiting (or is it compression - i am admittedly completely in the dark in both these regards). can someone please take me by the hand and tell me how to get a synth that is mostly peaking around -6 to-8db (but has peaks up to -2 or -3db) to consistently peak at -8db without drastically altering the sound.

also, what is the best freeware limiter (or compressor as the case may be)?

or should i just take the volume of everything down 3db or so?

You have a track ready to get mastered right? forget the limiter and just reduce the master volume. Bring it down as far as the Me wants it. He will want the master DRY I think.

[Recessive Trait]

yeah, i scrapped the limiter and brought down the gain of every sound i used. worked wonderfully.

still in the dark about compression and limiting though.

[therapist]

I feel I get envelopes on compressors, but not limiters. Say you are purely trying to eradicate peaks, does having a long attack or short decay not mean there are points where the full signal (ie. too much) is getting through?

I've a feeling I misunderstood something here, but I can't quite follow Macc's explanation of the pad vs percussion scenario. This idea always nags me when I'm mixing and I end up having 0.0 attack and the longest release on every limiter I use.

[Phigure]

I feel I get envelopes on compressors, but not limiters. Say you are purely trying to eradicate peaks, does having a long attack or short decay not mean there are points where the full signal (ie. too much) is getting through?

I've a feeling I misunderstood something here, but I can't quite follow Macc's explanation of the pad vs percussion scenario. This idea always nags me when I'm mixing and I end up having 0.0 attack and the longest release on every limiter I use.

a pad rises to higher levels gradually
percussion will peak rapidly

compressors act somewhat slower than a limiter, so they're better suited for catching those slow peaks
limiters act rapidly, so they're better suited for catching those fast spikes

[Depone]

I feel I get envelopes on compressors, but not limiters. Say you are purely trying to eradicate peaks, does having a long attack or short decay not mean there are points where the full signal (ie. too much) is getting through?

I've a feeling I misunderstood something here, but I can't quite follow Macc's explanation of the pad vs percussion scenario. This idea always nags me when I'm mixing and I end up having 0.0 attack and the longest release on every limiter I use.

a pad rises to higher levels gradually
percussion will peak rapidly

compressors act somewhat slower than a limiter, so they're better suited for catching those slow peaks
limiters act rapidly, so they're better suited for catching those fast spikes

Not really true mate.
I use compressors on fast transient material to shape the sound as well as catching those rogue peaks. Compression sounds totally different to limiting (limiting is usually pretty transparent). Compression shapes the audio dynamically.
For example, you want that bongo to have more bong than go then you can shape it with a compressor. And its the same the other way around. Limiters are almost always in use fror holding a steady amplitude, or to catch rogue peaks in audio, as well as effecting overall perceived loudness of the master. These are just some examples, im sure macc will jump on in and spread the good word.

[macc]

Use compression when you want to change the sound of something. The controls on a compressor are the means to do that. You can make things thicker/spikier/jumpier/smoother/more or less open/darker/brighter

Use limiting when you want iron-fisted dynamic control with as little change to the sound as possible. It will cost punch and add some distortion, but if you're not going silly then it should be grand.

I feel I get envelopes on compressors, but not limiters. Say you are purely trying to eradicate peaks, does having a long attack or short decay not mean there are points where the full signal (ie. too much) is getting through?

Yes, exactly. that's what it is there for. You can change the envelope of a sound. If you want rid of (very) short term peaks then you need a shorter attack. But it also depends on the release time set and the particular compressor you're using. Release behaviour is - arguably, from a certain point of view, IMO etc - the most critical thing in giving a compressor its sound

We can write and chat and waffle (well I can ) about it but the best thing you can do is get compressing. Choose your normal compressor and choose a couple of totally different sources - a full drum track and a pad, for example.

Wang the threshold down, set the ratio to, say, 8:1 minimum, turn up the make up gain so it sounds about the same level, and then only play with the attack and release. Open the attack and see how drums punch your ears out. Shorten both and hear how it flattens and distorts it, lengthen the release and find the spot where it follows the sound naturally and invisibly. See how a bit shorter than that (on drums) can just fatten things up a bit, etc etc etc etc.

Then try all those things on a soft, deep pad (buzzy square/triangle pads don't show it up so easily - think deep and ambient). Those same settings. Suddenly the release needs to be longer or the distortion is blatant. Attack seems to matter less, but can really help craft the sound.

The best way to get it is to do it, so stop reading this load of old bollocks I'm writing and get to it

I've a feeling I misunderstood something here, but I can't quite follow Macc's explanation of the pad vs percussion scenario. This idea always nags me when I'm mixing and I end up having 0.0 attack and the longest release on every limiter I use.

Don't take this the wrong way, but that's a common thing early on. I've been there man!


FWIW I am still learning, totally. I went to a session at my favourite engineer's studio recently. We both have the Summit DCL-200 (I got it after trying it there), it's a deep box. I looked at his settings and said 'WTF? You can't have it like that'. He suggested I try it on certain types of stuff. He was bloody right!


Time and practice, the only way