Complex drum sequencing, jungle, jazz etc...

hardware, software, tips and tricks
Forum rules
By using this "Production" sub-forum, you acknowledge that you have read, understood and agreed with our terms of use for this site. Click HERE to read them. If you do not agree to our terms of use, you must exit this site immediately. We do not accept any responsibility for the content, submissions, information or links contained herein. Users posting content here, do so completely at their own risk.

Quick Link to Feedback Forum
User avatar
mks
Posts: 4155
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:35 am
Location: Planet Earth

Re: Complex drum sequencing, jungle, jazz etc...

Post by mks » Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:52 am

sackley wrote::z:

Great post! Only reason I use "air" is because if I drag back the next hit I will most likely end up with another hit in there.

You, sir, know wtf you're talking about.

Edit: Here's the example of manually chopping and resequencing in Reaper w/ bits of "air". Just used my break from the VSTi Comp.

Soundcloud
EZ - I decided to have a bit of fun, drink a beer and chop up your break for the dsf vsti comp in a Junglist style just to refresh the techniques in my memory. It's been a few years since I made any Jungle/DnB. I decided to use the Sackley break and the Think break since it was mentioned (and it's one of my favs). The Sackley Break was timestretched and chopped like the techniques I mentioned earlier. The Think Break is not timestretched, and In The Shadows, it is not resampled, just played at a higher pitch. This break is a good example of a break that does sound good pitched up at higher tempos.

Soundcloud

green plan
Posts: 605
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:42 am

Re: Complex drum sequencing, jungle, jazz etc...

Post by green plan » Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:16 am

Awesome, thanks so much for the knowledge all. Was always struggling with breaks and think you guys may have sorted it out for me.

User avatar
meer
Posts: 211
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:12 am
Contact:

Re: Complex drum sequencing, jungle, jazz etc...

Post by meer » Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:56 am

I like to chop every sound out of a break and add 'air' to end of each one, so that it sounds like the drum is fading out naturally instead of just cutting out where the next hit starts.

Then I make a velocity layer in my sampler for each sample of each drum and smack the pad controller or mouse it in.

Lots of fun, especially since you can play em live.

In The Shadows
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:19 pm
Location: Croydon

Re: Complex drum sequencing, jungle, jazz etc...

Post by In The Shadows » Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:56 am

mks wrote:
In The Shadows wrote:
Im no expert with production so dont take anything I say as gospel, its just my own experience with these things. It depends on what break Im using how I do it, a lot get cut on every note and resequence that way. People are talking about timestretching the break to the tempo. Might just be terminology but I think of timestretching as changing the tempo of audio without changing the pitch, in the same way pitchshifting is changing the pitch without tempo. I wouldnt do either to a break as they usually distort the sound. Sometimes you want the distortion but if you just want it to speed up the way Id do it is to resample it. That moves the tempo and pitch together so the wave shapes stay undistorted, just get closer together, like speeding up a record on a deck. If you listen to this tune from about 1:38 or so....
You know timestretching is a technique that goes back to the early days of jungle, I don't know if you want to dissuade people from using an important technique. Fact is some breaks sound fine pitched up and some don't. If you have a funk break at 94 BPM and you are making a DnB tune at 174 BPM, sometimes timestretching is the way to go. It doesn't add any noticeable distortion if you do it right. Sometimes you might want to keep the original timbre of the drums but move them to a new tempo.

EZ
I did say that theres a limit to how far a break will pitch before it goes to crap. The vast majority of jungle drums have been pitched up/resampled/played at a higher key, whatever you want to call it or your software/hardware achieves/labels it. Changing the sample rate is probably the most correct way to label it in my limited knowledge, all these definitions mean slightly different things but theyre used on different programs and by different people to mean the same thing, which is changing the tempo and pitch together, Ive heard people call that timestretching (questionably) before. Like I said its just terminology which is why I explained what process I was refering to.

I hear what your saying about keeping the original timbre, like I said for that I just cut at every note. Timestretching involves by definition a distortion of the wave like pitchshifting does. But if your timestretcher moves things big distances without noticeably distorting them then cool, I cant argue with that. The ones Ive tried have always distorted things too much, people with the latest versions of ableton swear by its complex mode for timestreching things, I only have ableton 6 here, and its complex mode noticeably distorts, as do all the ones in soundforge and other software I have. Over time someones going to make an algorhythm that will remove all unwated distortions from timestretching, and if its been done already and I just dont have it then fair play. I wasnt trying to dissuade people from using timestretching, just explaining to green plan that I personaly wouldnt use that method for beats, unless I want that distortion I get specificly.

Timestretching is a classic jungle thing, but usually used to slow things down and get that weird metalic stretched distortion surely? wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaattttttchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh dddddiiiiiiiiissssssssssssssssssss style :Z:

green plan
Posts: 605
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:42 am

Re: Complex drum sequencing, jungle, jazz etc...

Post by green plan » Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:30 am

Have just been destroying an old herbie hancock break. So much damn fun. Was 110 BPM so just sped it up to 115 (BPM I wanted to use for track) using recycle, then imported it into logic as one audio file, chopped up in there. For all people hate on logic with audio it's all good, just create new audio file over and over again. Ended up making breakcore by mistake haha. Definitely going to be incorporating this into my work flow. Say you had a break at 80 BPM, and wanted to make a track at 125, would you need to shift BPM somehow? Either by time shifting or just speeding it up? Cause otherwise the bits inside the chunks wouldn't be in time with the placement of the chunks if you get me? Again apologies for being slow, you're really helping a pained learning brother out here.

BTW have never really listened to venetian snares/photek before, holy shit balls that stuff is amazing. Gunna have to go buy me some music, man it packs a punch a!

Edit: by speed it up I meant resample it faster

User avatar
Mortal
Posts: 936
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 5:08 pm
Location: Chesham, UK

Re: Complex drum sequencing, jungle, jazz etc...

Post by Mortal » Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:54 am

if i want things to sound a bit more complex i just apply a little method behind the madness (not musical method though seeing as i dont have that)
i'll do something like place a hi hat two steps after every kick or snare.
then place another layer of hi hats which hit two steps after each of the first hi hats
or something like this. it builds up a solid structure and sounds a lot more complex than it is.
i used this method for the WIP in my sig :e:
wubstep wrote:You Micro-scooter'd away from a knife wielding villian?

In The Shadows
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:19 pm
Location: Croydon

Re: Complex drum sequencing, jungle, jazz etc...

Post by In The Shadows » Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:07 am

green plan wrote:Have just been destroying an old herbie hancock break. So much damn fun. Was 110 BPM so just sped it up to 115 (BPM I wanted to use for track) using recycle, then imported it into logic as one audio file, chopped up in there. For all people hate on logic with audio it's all good, just create new audio file over and over again. Ended up making breakcore by mistake haha. Definitely going to be incorporating this into my work flow. Say you had a break at 80 BPM, and wanted to make a track at 125, would you need to shift BPM somehow? Either by time shifting or just speeding it up? Cause otherwise the bits inside the chunks wouldn't be in time with the placement of the chunks if you get me? Again apologies for being slow, you're really helping a pained learning brother out here.
yeah speed it up to the correct tempo if you are using chunks, if you have different methods of doing that available to you try em all and see which one you like the best.

deadly_habit
Posts: 22980
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:41 am
Location: MURRICA

Re: Complex drum sequencing, jungle, jazz etc...

Post by deadly_habit » Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:11 am

green plan wrote:BTW have never really listened to venetian snares/photek before, holy shit balls that stuff is amazing. Gunna have to go buy me some music, man it packs a punch a!
Image

might i suggest you take a gander at some of macc's music as well :wink:

sackley
Posts: 157
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:48 am

Re: Complex drum sequencing, jungle, jazz etc...

Post by sackley » Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:39 pm

In The Shadows wrote:
green plan wrote:Have just been destroying an old herbie hancock break. So much damn fun. Was 110 BPM so just sped it up to 115 (BPM I wanted to use for track) using recycle, then imported it into logic as one audio file, chopped up in there. For all people hate on logic with audio it's all good, just create new audio file over and over again. Ended up making breakcore by mistake haha. Definitely going to be incorporating this into my work flow. Say you had a break at 80 BPM, and wanted to make a track at 125, would you need to shift BPM somehow? Either by time shifting or just speeding it up? Cause otherwise the bits inside the chunks wouldn't be in time with the placement of the chunks if you get me? Again apologies for being slow, you're really helping a pained learning brother out here.
yeah speed it up to the correct tempo if you are using chunks, if you have different methods of doing that available to you try em all and see which one you like the best.
I sped up my contest break, which I'm quite certain is about 110 BPM give or take, to 160 BPM in reaper by using the Xenkios (sp?) extension "Resample selected item up one semitone" until it was in the ballpark, then time stretched to the exact tempo, then pitch shifted it back down 1 or 2 semitones. Actually worked quite well, given the drastic tempo change.

This thread is pure WIN.

Edit: MKS- It's a funny feeling to be a drummer and have your break mashed up with the Think break. I know it's not major, but it's like a sense of accomplishment. Nice one too man. :B:

User avatar
Wrigzilla
Posts: 432
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:50 pm

Re: Complex drum sequencing, jungle, jazz etc...

Post by Wrigzilla » Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:36 pm

deadly habit wrote:might i suggest you take a gander at some of macc's music as well :wink:
I bought one of his records while digging at my local record shop and only realised afterwoulds why I recognised the name...

Pretty much everything I have to say on this matter has already been said, but here's an idea if you want to change the speed of a break without timestretching but maintain the original groove (timestretching which doesn't affect the pitch affects the sound of the break, the more you push either faster or slower the more you'll hear it).

Import two copies of the same break into your project, now timestretch one to the tempo you want it to be (it doesn't matter if it sounds bad, we're only using this a a reference for the groove). Now with the other copy leave it at the original tempo and slice it up into individual hits and use line them up with the timestretched version. If there's gaps in the break add air ala paradox or if stuff is overlapping shorten the tails. Now you've got a faster or slower break with the original groove but the timbre and pitch of the orignial hits is unaffected.

Also, sackley, that break you did for the VSTi comp is pretty sick. I'm doing a tune at the moment mashing your one up with the action break and the paschendale one (high hats on the beginning of this tune http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8L8rd9Uzn0 )

edit: I also like using high hats from another break to add accents to offbeats where the kick or snare aren't hitting, makes things sound a bit more complex than they actually are.

green plan
Posts: 605
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:42 am

Re: Complex drum sequencing, jungle, jazz etc...

Post by green plan » Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:03 pm

Will definitely check out macc, that link someone posted to a video of him drumming was wicked. Threads gold.

User avatar
mks
Posts: 4155
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:35 am
Location: Planet Earth

Re: Complex drum sequencing, jungle, jazz etc...

Post by mks » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:41 am

In The Shadows wrote: I hear what your saying about keeping the original timbre, like I said for that I just cut at every note. Timestretching involves by definition a distortion of the wave like pitchshifting does. But if your timestretcher moves things big distances without noticeably distorting them then cool, I cant argue with that. The ones Ive tried have always distorted things too much, people with the latest versions of ableton swear by its complex mode for timestreching things, I only have ableton 6 here, and its complex mode noticeably distorts, as do all the ones in soundforge and other software I have. Over time someones going to make an algorhythm that will remove all unwated distortions from timestretching, and if its been done already and I just dont have it then fair play. I wasnt trying to dissuade people from using timestretching, just explaining to green plan that I personaly wouldnt use that method for beats, unless I want that distortion I get specificly.
Agreed, there are def some tonal differences and some added timbre coloring using timestretch which many would consider part of the sound. I used to use Akai samplers for this, but now mainly Ableton, sometimes Soundforge.
In The Shadows wrote: Timestretching is a classic jungle thing, but usually used to slow things down and get that weird metalic stretched distortion surely? wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaattttttchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh dddddiiiiiiiiissssssssssssssssssss style :Z:
Yeah man, this is a classic technique. Just keep timestretching a sample multiple times until you achieve the desired effect. You can use timestretch to either stretch sounds up or down.

User avatar
mks
Posts: 4155
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:35 am
Location: Planet Earth

Re: Complex drum sequencing, jungle, jazz etc...

Post by mks » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:46 am

sackley wrote: Edit: MKS- It's a funny feeling to be a drummer and have your break mashed up with the Think break. I know it's not major, but it's like a sense of accomplishment. Nice one too man. :B:
Cool, I dug your break and it was chop worthy. You should send me some more... 8)

User avatar
jsills
Posts: 1284
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:40 am
Location: Brooklyn
Contact:

Re: Complex drum sequencing, jungle, jazz etc...

Post by jsills » Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:43 am

Echoi wrote:
deadly habit wrote:what like this?
Soundcloud
Badman
seriously. hot shit.

deadly_habit
Posts: 22980
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:41 am
Location: MURRICA

Re: Complex drum sequencing, jungle, jazz etc...

Post by deadly_habit » Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:52 am

it also should be noted regarding timestretching, that you will end up with a different sound(different artifacts) depending on what algorithm you use to stretch

sackley
Posts: 157
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:48 am

Re: Complex drum sequencing, jungle, jazz etc...

Post by sackley » Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:44 pm

mks wrote:
sackley wrote: Edit: MKS- It's a funny feeling to be a drummer and have your break mashed up with the Think break. I know it's not major, but it's like a sense of accomplishment. Nice one too man. :B:
Cool, I dug your break and it was chop worthy. You should send me some more... 8)
Just watch the VSTi Comps. I'm not planning on stopping the breaks any time soon. Would love to hear what anyone does with them, whether it's for the contest or not...

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests