DSF Freeware VST Contest #2!

[Basic A]

Heh. You're the first person to say that there's hardly enough restriction! There's been plenty of pissing and moaning about being limited to the Kjaerhus dsp VST's, about not being able to use native FX, about the drum machine selection, about almost anything you can think of. And we're not even done with the second round. When you say there's no restrictions aside from the synth... are you forgetting that we all have to use the same drum machine, same break, and same dsp FX?

Yeah but thats hardly the point here. The restrictions your setting arent on the synthesis aspectof this, its in using shit samples and non native plugins for your mixdowns. Like I said all your expecting anyone to do here really is change there workflow a bit.

Can you honestly say that they all sound totally alike despite coming from the same plug, dsp fx, and drum machine + break?

No, but I never said I wanted them to either, I said I wanted people to be making unique tracks under synthesis conditions which are ACTUALLY RESTRICTING THEM IN SOME WAY. Anyone can make a totally unique track using the same samples, fucks sake... how many of us on here kane the u.k. garage pack from the darkbeats exchange? Lots. Do we all sound the same? nah.

As for using presets: are you talking generic .fxp's getting plugged into whatever synth's being featured, or... ? Remember that any of us can call shenanigans and ask to see how a sound was made if it's suspected that somebody cheated and used non-contest gear. See the bit in the rules in red font.

I never said anything about using presets. i said I could easily be using the synth I normally use, and noone would be the wiser, because the ones your choosing arent giving me any restrictions. And as far as you being able to call shenanigans then what? I hae to tell you 'I set osc 1 too saw, osc 2 to square, and lowpassed it!' Okay... Id type that, and people would move on, even though what I said has nothing to do with any particular synth.

I love this concept, the whole thing. Ie no objections to the drums and non-default plugins. Its that this is essentially, clearly, supposed to be about synthesis projects... but you might as well be telling people to use 3xOsc. hidden features? Meh. Thats not restrictive, and not encouraging anyone to get creative (btw, I see no hidden features on this one ) ... If you say, provided them with a synth only capable of using saw and pulse waves + feedback loops (NeoKill puts one exactly like this out) then okay... now your putting restrictionson. Now your making this some kinda comptetition.

IDK man...

You didnt explain anything I asked really. All you told me was that the drum samples are supposed to limit me...

Okay...

Call this the 'Drum Samples and non-Standard Workflow Competition!'

But I dont see how this is about working under restricted synth conditions.

Id give it a shot if there were restrictions here is all Im saying. The drums and stuff should be secondary to the synth restrictions, imo. And as far as I can tell. There the only thing making this even remotely difficult. Even you said that really alpha.

[3za]

My beef with the setup of these comp's is the samples. I don't think we need them, this is supposed to be the VSTi comp, not the VSTi & samples comp. You can make drum hits with the synth, when I entered the last one I just made drum hits with the synth.

I think we should change the resampling rule aswell. to you should only be allowed to do so to save cpu/clean up your daw, because with all this resampling it is not a really show of what the VST can do. It's look how bad i am at resampling contest imo.

I am also not a fan of the DSP pack, I think it should be smaller (eq, compressor, and reverb). Or you should be alound to use the eq, compressor, and reverb in your DAW. I think this because these are the main tools needed to do a mix down imo.

I have no problem with the VST's we have used in the comp's. It would be nice to see some more limited synths, as we have learnt from the sample pack comp's the more limited packs have given some great, and diverse tracks.

So i think we need more restrictions, and make these comp's more about the VST's. I am happy to see any VST's in these comp's aslong as they are stable...

Peace.

[alphacat]

Yeah but thats hardly the point here. The restrictions your setting arent on the synthesis aspectof this, its in using shit samples and non native plugins for your mixdowns. Like I said all your expecting anyone to do here really is change there workflow a bit.

Restrictions on synthesis proper was never the point in the first place: restrictions to a particular type of synthesis (e.g. the type provided by the featured instrument), and in a limited-plugin context to level the playing field - that was the point. Take a basic set of tools and make something with it, same ethic as the Sample Pack contest but the focus is shifted away from sample and signal processing skills towards basic and standardized synthesis and MIDI control, with DSP being secondary so people can't over-polish it.

No, but I never said I wanted them to either, I said I wanted people to be making unique tracks under synthesis conditions which are ACTUALLY RESTRICTING THEM IN SOME WAY. Anyone can make a totally unique track using the same samples, fucks sake... how many of us on here kane the u.k. garage pack from the darkbeats exchange? Lots. Do we all sound the same? nah.

I never said anything about using presets. i said I could easily be using the synth I normally use, and noone would be the wiser, because the ones your choosing arent giving me any restrictions. And as far as you being able to call shenanigans then what? I hae to tell you 'I set osc 1 too saw, osc 2 to square, and lowpassed it!' Okay... Id type that, and people would move on, even though what I said has nothing to do with any particular synth.

I think you're talking about the same thing as Futures_Untold and some of the other superadvanced ninjas around here when the idea was put forth originally, where yeah, the restrictions proposed by those fellas were really restrictive. And that also sounds like a fun challenge too, but in all honesty maybe a bit over many peoples' heads here. I don't want to dumb down anything: however I also think it should be inclusive and accessible to a broad range of experience levels. A "make all sounds only using granular synthesis algorithm XPQ-9" type of deal is gonna shut out those with less experience and turn it into almost more of an academic exercise. If someone wants to run a contest using nothing but Hammerhead and Audacity or something like that, though, more power to 'em. I'll play.

Besides, the "really limited" synths you mention like Itchy and the DSK stuff - correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those just... 2 and 3osc synths with little doodads like syncable LFOs and built in reverbs and whatnot? I love the ease of use of the Itchy stuff, and DSK StringZ is one of my main go-to plugs; they may be a tad more specialized/limited than the two synths we've used to date but... maybe not, depending on which one you're talking about. Point being it's still easy to make all 'basic' sounds with those synths as it is with the synths we've gone with, so I'm not sure where you're coming from on this. Are you saying we should check out less feature-laden synths?

Finally, as regards "easily be using the synth I normally use, and noone would be the wiser" - we specifically ask for a patch or explicit instructions on how to make the exact sound being challenged in your song, the idea being - if I open up your patch and it's not the same, then you've been spotted.

If you managed to get a 100% undetectable copy of that "set osc 1 too saw, osc 2 to square, and lowpassed it" using the provided plugs it's almost moot, isn't it? You probably should've just used the contest plugs in the first place if that's the case!

If, on the other hand, you pull off a sound that's being challenged and you provide patches or specific documentation so anyone can reproduce it, then suddenly it becomes a valuable learning exercise for the Production forum. Everyone can A) acknowledge that you're the don, and B) learn how to make better sounds. Win-win for all. In fact, I'm secretly a little bummed this hasn't happened yet but I think it will inevitably.

[quote="Basic A"]I love this concept, the whole thing. Ie no objections to the drums and non-default plugins. Its that this is essentially, clearly, supposed to be about synthesis projects... but you might as well be telling people to use 3xOsc. hidden features? Meh. Thats not restrictive, and not encouraging anyone to get creative (btw, I see no hidden features on this one ) ... If you say, provided them with a synth only capable of using saw and pulse waves + feedback loops (NeoKill puts one exactly like this out) then okay... now your putting restrictionson. Now your making this some kinda comptetition.

IDK man...

You didnt explain anything I asked really. All you told me was that the drum samples are supposed to limit me...

Okay...

Call this the 'Drum Samples and non-Standard Workflow Competition!'[/quote]

I think I'm beginning to hear where you're coming from, and I have to respect that you're feeling... not challenged by this challenge. I would like to add though that - at least for me - this is still loosely song-based (again like the Sample Pack contest) and not just about showcasing technical ability, although it certainly helps.

To me it's more about making people understand that free doesn't always mean crap, and that tools do not equal talent. I know that there a lot of seriously talented people on this board who can make a fart sample into a symphony (Constrobuz for example)... but we can't all be Harrison Bergerons either. Or rather - many of us are still Harrison Bergerons in training.

[quote="Basic A"]But I dont see how this is about working under restricted synth conditions.

Id give it a shot if there were restrictions here is all Im saying. The drums and stuff should be secondary to the synth restrictions, imo. And as far as I can tell. There the only thing making this even remotely difficult. Even you said that really alpha.[/quote]

Again though: it's a restricted set of tools. As a serious audio tool specialist yourself you should be able to appreciate that for many - if not you - there's an inherent limitation there...

I fully support any contest centered around super-limited synthesis that you or anyone else would care to run and would probably participate. Maybe even removing songs from the equation (which also adds novelty, since we now have 2 different songwriting contests featuring 'semi-limited' production methodology) and making it a patch/bank contest - "who can come up with the most amazing patch[es] for the NeoKill" - maybe that's an idea? IDK either bruv. We're just having fun playing with toys.

[sackley]

I think there are 2 ways that people interpret this contest.

Group A: Push 'X' freeware VSTi to the limit

Group B: Make a well-done song with the given VSTi and samples.

Personally I've been interpreting it as making a full tune out of the limited plugs/samples. If it were just about pushing the synth, then yes, we should only use the VSTi and a few basic effects plugs. But what's the fun in a "preset comp", instead of showing that you can make a decent tune out of free plugs.

Not saying that a "preset comp" is what anyone's getting at, but that's what the most basic form of this would be, I guess...

As far as the drum hits/breaks... I just wanted to give at least a little something back to the community, since I've gotten so much from here.... I hope they're OK... .

[alphacat]

My beef with the setup of these comp's is the samples. I don't think we need them, this is supposed to be the VSTi comp, not the VSTi & samples comp. You can make drum hits with the synth, when I entered the last one I just made drum hits with the synth.

I think we should change the resampling rule aswell. to you should only be allowed to do so to save cpu/clean up your daw, because with all this resampling it is not a really show of what the VST can do. It's look how bad i am at resampling contest imo.

I am also not a fan of the DSP pack, I think it should be smaller (eq, compressor, and reverb). Or you should be alound to use the eq, compressor, and reverb in your DAW. I think this because these are the main tools needed to do a mix down imo.

I have no problem with the VST's we have used in the comp's. It would be nice to see some more limited synths, as we have learnt from the sample pack comp's the more limited packs have given some great, and diverse tracks.

So i think we need more restrictions, and make these comp's more about the VST's. I am happy to see any VST's in these comp's aslong as they are stable...

Peace.

Again, respect to the black belts on the board. I would like to point out though that not everyone uses only eq, comp, and verb in their mixdowns... And given a two week limit to both come up with sounds and arrange them into a semblance of a tune, requiring people to synthesize every everything 100% from scratch is going to limit the number of players significantly IMO. Given how many submissions we got last time I think we're at a perfect level of accessibility. If too many people start entering, that's another problem - one we don't have yet, or hopefully ever. The more the merrier!

And the resampling: can't say that I think I heard any extraordinary displays of resampling in the last one. Native sampler FX like delay, verb, whatever aren't allowed either, so... yeah.

Anyone else feeling that the rules aren't restrictive enough as well? (Bear in mind there's always gonna be something that chafes someone...)

[3za]

I understand wanting to make the comp accessible to all. I think I will play by my rules, and you can play by yours.

but saying that i have found it harder to synth drums with this synth... so i might play by your rules

[paravrais]

Speaking as someone who is by no means a pro at producing I personally think more restrictions could be a good thing. Lets remember that this comp is still in it's infancy, there's bound to be some kinks to work out. I enjoyed entering the last one and actually did find it challenging to be honest. This one maybe a bit too easy to get something good coming out of the pack but still it's FUN working with some different tools for once and that's really why I enter these comps. To have fun working with things I wouldn't usually have come into contact with.

So yeah I agree with lots that has been said here both by alpha and others but ultimately I think we should try it a few different ways and see what works best. I'm not talking radical changes but how about for the next one there is no break. Only like 4 drum hits and a much more restrictive or bizzare synth? I know a couple that would be really interesting to see people try and use for this comp. I think the effects pack is restrictive enough definitely so leave that in although maybe dissallow/remove the flanger and phaser or something just to streamline the whole thing a bit more?

Basically try meeting in the middle here for the next one of these and if it doesn't work as well then go back to the current format, it's no biggie but it's worth trying stuff out to find the best way this works.

Also I wouldn't worry about exiling newbies from this comp, if they really wanna enter they will find a way and IMO..

less accessible = less entries = more votes = more exciting

[futures_untold]

Restrict the contest to only using http://www.kvraudio.com/get/3431.html or GTFO

Jokes.

[alphacat]

Restrict the contest to only using http://www.kvraudio.com/get/3431.html or GTFO

Jokes.

# Uses Japanese full phoneme set.
# Low CPU usage.

SOLD.

Heh.

I was actually thinking of the Xoxos "Oscine Tract" VST which "...models the songbird vocal tract, also known as the syrinx." Can you imagine the nutty songs people'd make with that?

==============================================

I think Sackley put it very succinctly re-reading this thread: "Group A: Push 'X' freeware VSTi to the limit, Group B: Make a well-done song with the given VSTi and samples."

The thing is, sometimes a song is a stunner because of technical virtuosity or a particularly cool sound, and sometimes it's because it's just a good fuckin' song. By focusing on one to the exclusion of the other it gets a little overspecialized - there's room for the whiz kids and the songwriter types still.

I agree that there's probably some fat that could be trimmed, although I quite like the breaks Sackley's given us; the phaser and flanger are a little superfluous, but that Melda dsp pack that was offered up has a waveshaper ffs, so...

Must ponder.



Meanwhile, let's run this leg out as-is and we can figure out what to fine-tune in the downtime at contest's end, sound OK?

[DANEJAH_dubstep]

edit: I did a fucking search

[paravrais]

If I win this (yeah right lol) can I meddle with the format for the next one a bit as well as choosing the synth :p

[alphacat]

If I win this (yeah right lol) can I meddle with the format for the next one a bit as well as choosing the synth :p

Within reason, and according to the consensus of the other participants 'round here. What'd you have in mind? [cringing as I ask... ]

[paravrais]

If I win this (yeah right lol) can I meddle with the format for the next one a bit as well as choosing the synth :p

Within reason, and according to the consensus of the other participants 'round here. What'd you have in mind? [cringing as I ask... ]

Very small drum pack, no break (no offense sackley, the stuff you've provided has been sick but makes it too easy lol), one synth, something like chimera or basic 64, something a bit out there and different. No use of the effects pack we currently have. No EQ, reverb, filters etc outside of whatever synth is chosen. Make people *really* work to get a good sound. If that's too harsh then allow reverb, EQ, filter and chorus but nothing else. No sampler effects/resampling including reversing (so only resampling to save processing power). Only things allowed would be timestretching/re-pitching.

How does that sound?

[3za]

If I win this (yeah right lol) can I meddle with the format for the next one a bit as well as choosing the synth :p

Within reason, and according to the consensus of the other participants 'round here. What'd you have in mind? [cringing as I ask... ]

Very small drum pack, no break (no offense sackley, the stuff you've provided has been sick but makes it too easy lol), one synth, something like chimera or basic 64, something a bit out there and different. No use of the effects pack we currently have. No EQ, reverb, filters etc outside of whatever synth is chosen. Make people *really* work to get a good sound. If that's too harsh then allow reverb, EQ, filter and chorus but nothing else. No sampler effects/resampling including reversing (so only resampling to save processing power). Only things allowed would be timestretching/re-pitching.

How does that sound?

I like the sound of that

apart from i would like;
- no drum pack.
- no timestretching. (you can make amazing sounds, just by time stretching some of the most crap sounds)
- eq, compressor, and reverb we got now. (maybe the delay if people want it)

make it all about the VST...

[paravrais]

If I win this (yeah right lol) can I meddle with the format for the next one a bit as well as choosing the synth :p

Within reason, and according to the consensus of the other participants 'round here. What'd you have in mind? [cringing as I ask... ]

Very small drum pack, no break (no offense sackley, the stuff you've provided has been sick but makes it too easy lol), one synth, something like chimera or basic 64, something a bit out there and different. No use of the effects pack we currently have. No EQ, reverb, filters etc outside of whatever synth is chosen. Make people *really* work to get a good sound. If that's too harsh then allow reverb, EQ, filter and chorus but nothing else. No sampler effects/resampling including reversing (so only resampling to save processing power). Only things allowed would be timestretching/re-pitching.

How does that sound?

I like the sound of that

apart from i would like;
- no drum pack.
- no timestretching. (you can make amazing sounds, just by time stretching some of the most crap sounds)
- eq, compressor, and reverb we got now. (maybe the delay if people want it)

make it all about the VST...

I'm down with that. I thought maybe one kick one snare and one hat might make it a bit more accessible but it's really not necessary to have any drum pack. Forgot about delay, blatantly delay rather than chorus.

[amphibian]

With these contests (this is the 2nd time I'm bringing it up now, did so in the 1st), you should really think about allowing people on Macs to be able to participate - as VST support on mac is not cool. Only select plugins that work as vst or au if you can - cos you're blocking out half the community by not doing so.

[paravrais]

With these contests (this is the 2nd time I'm bringing it up now, did so in the 1st), you should really think about allowing people on Macs to be able to participate - as VST support on mac is not cool. Only select plugins that work as vst or au if you can - cos you're blocking out half the community by not doing so.

It's much harder to find freeware synths that are available in both formats though, there just isn't the general support for it and the majority of people here are windows/linux users so we gotta cater for the majority really.

[alphacat]

@amphibian-

We've gone over this issue the first time... IMO, it's ultimately Apple's fault for choosing not to support the standard in the end.

Abridged version for those who didn't read it the first time:

I'd love to participate, but Tal Elec7ro does nothing but bad things on my logic setup - if I'm playing a track and try to use it at the same time, it tends to be rather unresponsive, and seems very buggy. Have tried both the vst and the au component, both similar problems

EDIT: Just realized this competition isn't very mac-friendly at all, with some of the pack not usable on mac at all (.exe files)

Well... In the larger context - not just this contest - yes, VST development in general has favored PC only because of the circumstances of code availability to 3rd parties [as regards Microsoft and Apple...]

VST plugin standard

The VST plugin standard is the audio plugin standard created by Steinberg to allow any third party developers to create VST plugins for use within VST host applications. VST requires separate installations for Windows, Mac OS X and Linux.

The majority of VST plugins are available for Windows due to both Apple's proprietary Audio Unit software for OS X and the lack of information and patent encumbrances that make development difficult for Linux platforms

and...

The good news is, though, that you're not totally without options. I'm happy to provide the individual .dll files - and there are a few options for VST-adapting software for Mac. See this post for more about that. But just to reiterate gently, the world of freeware VST's is definitely slanted towards PC users. Luckily you plucky MacHeads are resourceful though, right?

re: Making it so the contest features Mac-friendly plugs - I have mixed feelings about that. First of all it limits the number of options significantly; second, while I don't have any problem with Macs and the people who use 'em exclusively, as stated earlier - this is the trade-off you make when buying a Mac - this is a byproduct of their code sharing policies, not the deliberate exclusionary design of the VST-using community of musicians. IF we can find a basic DSP pack that's good (as good or better than the Kjaerhus, anyway) that's available for both platforms that's fine. If not, though... Oh well.

[paravrais]

Just finished my entry for this, was gonna spend ages on it and try and get it just right but after trying that I decided it was shit and deleted it all yesterday. Then made pretty much the whole tune again yesterday with a totally different vibe and now I'm just gonna submit it XD really rough and ready but maybe that's a good thing. If I spend ages on something it always ends up cack..

[amphibian]

@amphibian-

We've gone over this issue the first time... IMO, it's ultimately Apple's fault for choosing not to support the standard in the end.

Abridged version for those who didn't read it the first time:

Crap, now I feel like an idiot cos I completely missed the first reply

Thanks for the recap alphacat!

I agree it's Apple's fault, but they did so for a reason - VST documentation for host programming is completely absent, whereas AU host documentation is not (making it easier for plugin vendors). It also means that plugins can work more seamlessly with an application on mac via the AU format than VST.