Millbank student demo just got real

[LA_Boxers]

If they care so much about their tuition fees you think they would have waited to half term or something??

[mikey_g]

I doubt many people at the protest had bothered to look up the details of what they were protesting against but fair play to the people there who actually truly oppose the cuts and didn't take part in the damage... I respect that they're actually trying to get their view heard, despite their stance being damaged by the violence.

Also also, it's not really self interest since all these people are students already and hence won't have to pay any increased fees.

This. Was listening to 5live this morning and they had students ringing up who were on their way down to the protest. Out of the 4 I heard only 1 actually knew it wouldn't effect them and none of them knew the differences the changes would actually make - ie how much more they would have to pay once they earn a certain amount. One even said 'well thats not too bad really'. And these are people on the way to the protest...........
If this had been in newcastle and they'd tried to break into my office (after attempting to talk them out of it of course) I would have had no qualms in smacking them ignorant prats.
Totally agree with steph about the huge number of pointless degrees being a large factor in this aswell. American studies??? FUCK OFF

[Motorway to Roswell]

Apparently it went tits up after the SWP arrived

havent read it all yet but why was shaun wright phillips there?

He's always there. Stumbling about in the wings.

[mikey_g]

Apparently it went tits up after the SWP arrived

havent read it all yet but why was shaun wright phillips there?

He's always there. Stumbling about in the wings.

getting paid loads for doing fuck all.

[Pada]

Apparently it went tits up after the SWP arrived

havent read it all yet but why was shaun wright phillips there?

Fucking LOL

[snypadub]

Right, not been involved in this conversation because I was at the protest today. Just a quick, slightly irrelevant response to a post above; Uni students don't have half term. The cuts affect people right accross the board. I chose to go to university because I want to have a job that pays me well enough to provide well for myself and my partner in these difficult times. I wanted to do a pgce after my current course and because of these cuts I am now expected to pay an additional 9 grand on top of what I already pay.

I think some points made here need a bit of a response too: firstly, the majority of us fund university ourselves through the slc, this doesn't come from the taxpayers. Taxpayers fund the universities themselves and also help cover the costs of grants awarded to students of a significantly lower income. Most of us don't rely on our families to pay our way through either.

Education is a right and not a privelage for the elite upper classes only and that is why we witnessed some violence today. People really do care about their (and other's) futures so I understand how the violent protesters felt however, I do not condone the violence. It seems to me a peacefull protest of over 50,000 students, lecturers, parents and grandparents have been overlooked in favour of the more newsworthy violence. The people causing violence were of a significant minority.

We are not all snobish brats, we do not all eat beans. Most of us are just like you.
Today, regardless of what you might think, a message was sent to the government. It may go unheard but the point is that people are out there willing to put these parlimentary bastards in their place.

Rant over.

Love

[noam]

there were protests about the cuts a few months ago and it barely made the papers.

now its made the front pages and is on everyones minds at least for this moment in time.

if it takes actions like that to spark interest and debate then so be it

[magma]

The problem is, in light of the deficit the Labour party's campaign to put every A level student into uni (regardless of whether it was in their best interests or not) has had on the economy, these cuts need to happen.

I agree that too many people are directed to Uni... I didn't go (I might do it as a mature student one day) and made a career for myself, worked fine - I work in IT support/systems, which is actually easier to learn on the job, I reckon... unless you're doing hardcore development in which case an academic course makes more sense. It has put a massive burden on the tax payer, you're right.

I don't think that the answer is discouraging people with fees though. Unis should only run courses that have genuine academic merit; the selection process should take care of the rest - the brightest and best should get to university, the rest should be able to get proper vocational training, especially proper learn-whilst-you-earn apprenticeships.

You don't need a degree to do an awful lot of the jobs our society creates, but you shouldn't be typecast to those jobs by your financial situation. The country shouldn't see a problem with paying for intelligent people to make the most of their talents, but it also shouldn't see a problem with funding the training of mechanics, IT workers and hairdressers (through subsidies to companies that create apprenticeship schemes, for example).

[herbalicious]

"TODDLAT wrote
ang tight the bredda in the mishka jumper right at the front of the madness"

Sorry students, but all the while you get free money*, and long lie ins noone other than your peers will feel sorry for you.

I mean not to be hostile...just stating a fact. Actually...this whole protest thing will only make a lot of people hate you more. Fact.

*I know then after you have massive debt, but most people forget about that bit.

[herbalicious]

In fact...I'm not surprised all this is happening (tuition fees being put up)...the gov fucked themselves over by promoting Uni to a level where too many kids go. Now a major lack of skilled workers, and overcrowded world of Media, Pscychology and English graduates....the balance has tipped, leaving the government trying to take a bunch of money off one side of the see-saw so it balances out again.

[-dubson-]

Lil' Shaun merking bare mans!!

[-dubson-]

In fact...I'm not surprised all this is happening (tuition fees being put up)...the gov fucked themselves over by promoting Uni to a level where too many kids go. Now a major lack of skilled workers, and overcrowded world of Media, Pscychology and English graduates....the balance has tipped, leaving the government trying to take a bunch of money off one side of the see-saw so it balances out again.

Yeah, denying people education seems harsh... But then obviously skilled workers are needed and media/psychology/english ect. doest have unlimited places. How you keep the balance without ruining peoples ambitions seems pretty hard to answer.

Near impossible situation really.

[slothrop]

The problem is, in light of the deficit the Labour party's campaign to put every A level student into uni (regardless of whether it was in their best interests or not) has had on the economy, these cuts need to happen.

I agree that too many people are directed to Uni... I didn't go (I might do it as a mature student one day) and made a career for myself, worked fine - I work in IT support/systems, which is actually easier to learn on the job, I reckon... unless you're doing hardcore development in which case an academic course makes more sense. It has put a massive burden on the tax payer, you're right.

I don't think that the answer is discouraging people with fees though. Unis should only run courses that have genuine academic merit; the selection process should take care of the rest - the brightest and best should get to university, the rest should be able to get proper vocational training, especially proper learn-whilst-you-earn apprenticeships.

OTM.

Also, minor point but this is going to do fuck all in the context of current government spending because they're still going to have to find the cash to give all these students massive loans that they aren't even going to start paying off in the next five years...

[mikey_g]

In fact...I'm not surprised all this is happening (tuition fees being put up)...the gov fucked themselves over by promoting Uni to a level where too many kids go. Now a major lack of skilled workers, and overcrowded world of Media, Pscychology and English graduates....the balance has tipped, leaving the government trying to take a bunch of money off one side of the see-saw so it balances out again.

Yeah, denying people education seems harsh... But then obviously skilled workers are needed and media/psychology/english ect. doest have unlimited places. How you keep the balance without ruining peoples ambitions seems pretty hard to answer.

Near impossible situation really.

it seems a bit draconian but easy solution would be to stop pretty much all courses where the entry requirement is c or more.

[legend4ry]

Since I was thinking of going to Uni next year I was against the cuts when i first heard about them... but its pretty simple really - they put the prices up, pay you more and you have to be earning more post-degree before you start paying it back. Its just inflation of uni fees but the student loan will be upped to cover it(in most cases)! And ANYWAYS, unless you're going to top tier unis, the fees is only going up by 500-1000 !

A lot of those anarchist protesters just wanted a tear up and don't really have a decent clue about whats actually happening, from the hardcore protesters I have met in my time, a lot of their views are based on conspiracy and that often leads to hate, as conspiracy is one of those thing what gets blown out of proportion quite quickly.

I know 'nuff people who recently graduated from both academic and creative courses and only one of them is working at a job what they needed their degree to get into. The rest are on the dole or working in retail or doing pub work. I don't think this protest was completely useless though and the reason current students were there is because you're not going to get 16-17 year olds protesting about the uni fees(the majority of people who it'll effect) cause its so bashed into this generations head that unless you go to University you're worthless so they're going to go uni no matter what, then again I am quite a victim to that mindset. Even though I finished school 4 years ago, we was told the only real route to go in life is A-levels then Uni and then we'll be in successful jobs haha! Complete bollocks, if i am honest. The only jobs I can see what pay the 30-40k mark you need at least 5 years experience in the sector you want to go into so really they need to create programs for students where theres a 4th year and you work within the industry you get your degree in and then 20% of your pay is used to pay back your loan or something, thats a way to get people experience and to get quick income from the loans, it'll never work though, well it would but it'll be impossible to implement!

[slothrop]

In fact...I'm not surprised all this is happening (tuition fees being put up)...the gov fucked themselves over by promoting Uni to a level where too many kids go. Now a major lack of skilled workers, and overcrowded world of Media, Pscychology and English graduates....the balance has tipped, leaving the government trying to take a bunch of money off one side of the see-saw so it balances out again.

Yeah, denying people education seems harsh... But then obviously skilled workers are needed and media/psychology/english ect. doest have unlimited places. How you keep the balance without ruining peoples ambitions seems pretty hard to answer.

Near impossible situation really.

Not really.

Smaller (but properly funded) university system focussing on quality teaching for people who are going to make full use of it and benefit from it.

Rebalancing of the jobs market so that only jobs where a degree is actually a useful indicator of aptitude require a degree - which is a fairly small proportion of them, and not 'all the interesting ones'.

Rebalancing of society as people who aren't academically inclined realise that they can still do worthwhile stuff with their life even if they haven't spent three years drinking cheap lager and failing to go to lectures.

A lot of the reason that people think a degree is essential to realizing your ambitions these days is because so fucking many people have got them. Fundamentally, if my dream in life is (random example) to be a zookeeper then I'm probably going to be better off spending three years as an assistant keeper in a zoo learning stuff on the job than I am going to uni and doing a mickey mouse course on 'exotic animal management'.

[-dubson-]

In fact...I'm not surprised all this is happening (tuition fees being put up)...the gov fucked themselves over by promoting Uni to a level where too many kids go. Now a major lack of skilled workers, and overcrowded world of Media, Pscychology and English graduates....the balance has tipped, leaving the government trying to take a bunch of money off one side of the see-saw so it balances out again.

Yeah, denying people education seems harsh... But then obviously skilled workers are needed and media/psychology/english ect. doest have unlimited places. How you keep the balance without ruining peoples ambitions seems pretty hard to answer.

Near impossible situation really.

Not really.

Smaller (but properly funded) university system focussing on quality teaching for people who are going to make full use of it and benefit from it.

Rebalancing of the jobs market so that only jobs where a degree is actually a useful indicator of aptitude require a degree - which is a fairly small proportion of them, and not 'all the interesting ones'.

Rebalancing of society as people who aren't academically inclined realise that they can still do worthwhile stuff with their life even if they haven't spent three years drinking cheap lager and failing to go to lectures.

A lot of the reason that people think a degree is essential to realizing your ambitions these days is because so fucking many people have got them. Fundamentally, if my dream in life is (random example) to be a zookeeper then I'm probably going to be better off spending three years as an assistant keeper in a zoo learning stuff on the job than I am going to uni and doing a mickey mouse course on 'exotic animal management'.

Yeah your right, but i dont think the problem will be totally gone still. The amount of people who want to be plumbers, builders ect. seems to have gone way down, maybe i'm wrong but i think alot more people want to make a name for themselves now than say... 50 years ago.

[noam]

the hypotheticals involved in predicting a massive portion of 18-25year olds prospective career choices are possibly the worst reason for making education less accessible to masses.

the majority of people who are 18-25 will have no idea what they want to be, those who do will pursue it either through university or not. the rest should not be deterred from entering university on the basis that some people feel they should be ushered into another path.

this is ridiculous, everyone should have the CHANCE to get educated at university, the same way everyone should have the CHANCE to be fucking binman. equality shouldn't be about making everyone the same, or reducing a 'standard' to that of the lowest common denominator but allowing a freedom to pursue avenues in life regardless of your background. that means making education as ACCESSIBLE as possible to the most amount of people - the fact lots of people have degrees doesn't stop you going to uni, getting a first, smashing interviews for jobs and raking in cash by the time you're 40.

[esfandyar]

there were protests about the cuts a few months ago and it barely made the papers.

now its made the front pages and is on everyones minds at least for this moment in time.

if it takes actions like that to spark interest and debate then so be it

absoutely. during the iraq war protests over here in the states, many non-violent marches were held and no one was saying shit about it in the media, actually lots of those protests were covered up by the media. however, when a few hundred violent protesters began confronting police, blockading streets, setting shit on fire it was made quite aware in the media.

direct action is the only way to go.

same stuff happened here in the US with the UC schools here in California, tuitions were hiked up exponentially. At Berkeley, the universities were occupied for days, a great many dance parties were had. But amongst the students, alot of the anarchist presence really had no demands because they view the system as a sham, and didnt want anything from the system.

In Greece many anarchist groups completely took over Athens and many other parts of Greece, in regards to the slaying of a 15 year old youth, Alexandros Gregoropoulos.

From wiki-

"On December 6, 2008, a 15-year old youth was shot dead by a policeman after a verbal exchange in the libertarian stronghold of Exarchia, Athens. Within an hour,Anarchists, leftists and sympathisers rioted and attacked banks, police vehicles and government offices in the area. The government's attempts for a cover-up and refusal to apologise brought thousands to the streets for daily clashes and demonstrations. The parliament building was besieged for weeks by angry crowds. Major violence erupted during one of the marches, with rioters attacking and setting on fire many public buildings, banks and shops. Thousands of young people staged angry protests across Greece, attacking police stations in every town. Almost in every neighbourhood of Athens and Pireus police stations, banks and big businesses were firebombed. The "December Unrest", as it became known, gave a new impetus to the Anarchists, who were in the forefront of the movement."

That paragraph from wiki kinda dumbed things down a bit but you get the picture.

Think if you had a community where one of your friends you struggled with daily was shot and killed by police, and this group organized as the greeks did to show what happens if you murder an innocent person.

I wish people only took these matters such as destroying property and violent resistance as a productive attack on the system rather than it just being observed as people trying to stir shit up, or someone said earlier most of these people are conspirators. There are loons in all different paradigms of our society. Because anarchists are a much smaller population than the mainstream, and reject the mainstream all together, their actions seem to be interpreted as too extreme. Such a shame.

I salute my comrades from afar!

EDIT: this is a link to a website run by some of the occupiers of Berkeley (Occupy CA). They say some shit on the Millibanks stuff too.
http://occupyca.wordpress.com/

[deepfiend]

American studies??? FUCK OFF

YO. I've got my 2:2 degree in American Studies. Don't test.

[+] Spoiler

Yeah, it's a waste degree, but hey - KNOW YOUR ENEMY