Millbank student demo just got real

[esfandyar]

Bookies ladbroke is taking 5/1 odds that the tuitions will be scrapped by the end of the year.
I'd say the riots did good.
http://www.bettingpro.com/category/Poli ... 111000153/

[nowaysj]

what this man said

people don't choose to kick in glass of the seat of power in front of banks of cameras as a laugh

Except for when they kick the glass window and laugh and moon the photographers?

[nowaysj]

What I'm calling a double post.

[snypadub]

People still bitching about the loans? The Idea of a loan is that it is paid back. Regardless of how long or short term that might be it will be paid back. Plus the loans come from the SLC not directly from the gov't. Seriously people.

[DRTY]

People still bitching about the loans? The Idea of a loan is that it is paid back. Regardless of how long or short term that might be it will be paid back. Plus the loans come from the SLC not directly from the gov't. Seriously people.

It's about uni fees, not loans (I think).

[snypadub]

I know it's about fees! I was marching. People have been bringing up loans as a weak counter to the argument on the side of students.

[symmetricalsounds]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 31008.html

my particular favourite part of the article

What is not part of our democracy is that sort of violence and lawbreaking. It's not right. It's not acceptable and I hope that the full force of the law will be used

funny because it seems to me violence and lawbreaking are some of the most key parts of our democracy and have been for years.

[stephisaint]

The problem is, in light of the deficit the Labour party's campaign to put every A level student into uni (regardless of whether it was in their best interests or not) has had on the economy, these cuts need to happen.

I agree that too many people are directed to Uni... I didn't go (I might do it as a mature student one day) and made a career for myself, worked fine - I work in IT support/systems, which is actually easier to learn on the job, I reckon... unless you're doing hardcore development in which case an academic course makes more sense. It has put a massive burden on the tax payer, you're right.

I don't think that the answer is discouraging people with fees though. Unis should only run courses that have genuine academic merit; the selection process should take care of the rest - the brightest and best should get to university, the rest should be able to get proper vocational training, especially proper learn-whilst-you-earn apprenticeships.

You don't need a degree to do an awful lot of the jobs our society creates, but you shouldn't be typecast to those jobs by your financial situation. The country shouldn't see a problem with paying for intelligent people to make the most of their talents, but it also shouldn't see a problem with funding the training of mechanics, IT workers and hairdressers (through subsidies to companies that create apprenticeship schemes, for example).

I agree with you completely. Part of the "cuts" is the reduction of places for subjects like English, Psychology, Arts, Classics, Media, and less useful sciences like Zoology. This essentially eliminates the (arguably but not necessarily) less academic from the system who in all probability wouldn't have a career based on their degree anyway.
This means that when students who get a useful degree leave uni and hopefully a well paid career because of it, they're more able to pay back the large student loans they acquired at the same time (remembering that if you earn under a certain amount after leaving uni, you pay the loan back accordingly). Seems fair to me.

[Pedro Sánchez]

(remembering that if you earn under a certain amount after leaving uni, you pay the loan back accordingly). Seems fair to me.

£15,000pa is the threshold before repayment.

[j_one]

(remembering that if you earn under a certain amount after leaving uni, you pay the loan back accordingly). Seems fair to me.

£15,000pa is the threshold before repayment.

I heard they're putting this up to nearer £20k?

[abs]

i just watched a video of this on the bbc website, the kids are listening to caspa in the background as they smash the place!

[xarcane]

What does it matter that you don't have to pay it back until you're earning 21k, when you can't get a mortgage or a decent loan, because you owe £30k+, and you're still paying rent and tax out of your arsehole? i didn't realise this was a forum of Daily Mail readers.

[symmetricalsounds]

witness the american higher ed system and see why these measures will put us firmly on the road to that.

[j_one]

What does it matter that you don't have to pay it back until you're earning 21k, when you can't get a mortgage or a decent loan, because you owe £30k+, and you're still paying rent and tax out of your arsehole? i didn't realise this was a forum of Daily Mail readers.

Was just sayin'.

[magma]

I agree with you completely. Part of the "cuts" is the reduction of places for subjects like English, Psychology, Arts, Classics, Media, and less useful sciences like Zoology. This essentially eliminates the (arguably but not necessarily) less academic from the system who in all probability wouldn't have a career based on their degree anyway.
This means that when students who get a useful degree leave uni and hopefully a well paid career because of it, they're more able to pay back the large student loans they acquired at the same time (remembering that if you earn under a certain amount after leaving uni, you pay the loan back accordingly). Seems fair to me.

Since when were Arts degrees not useful?!

Society is made of more experts than just scientists, historians and mathmaticians... we need writers, we need high-artists, we need philosophers, we need people who take 4 years out of their life to understand what human existance is and how on earth to make sense of it. Obviously we also need people who didn't go to university to think about these things, but it's quite hard with a job to hold down... those with the genuine lust should be afforded the opportunity to expand themselves... it does us all a favour in the long run.

[Pedro Sánchez]

I hate it when people rip into people for protesting, if nothing else they as said, getting off their arses and trying to make a difference. Apathy isnt going to help anyone.

Neither is violence.

Just because they're doing "something" doesn't make them superior to people who don't. It matters what "something" you're doing.

I might just go campaign for the british heart foundation by smashing up shops that sell cigarettes.

I agree,it was done in the 80's and what did it solve then and where are them protesters today, just gives the police new powers everytime this shit happens.

200,000 people in Poll tax riots in 1990- we aren't paying poll tax. 2 million peacefully protested Iraq in 2003- we went to war.

Poll tax was scrapped because it was a bad policy and because the majority of the country opposed it and ended after Thatcher stepped down, not because of the directs riots over 6 months earlier.

[symmetricalsounds]

200,000 people in Poll tax riots in 1990- we aren't paying poll tax.

no but we happily took the repackaged council tax quite peacefully didn't we.

[stephisaint]

I agree with you completely. Part of the "cuts" is the reduction of places for subjects like English, Psychology, Arts, Classics, Media, and less useful sciences like Zoology. This essentially eliminates the (arguably but not necessarily) less academic from the system who in all probability wouldn't have a career based on their degree anyway.
This means that when students who get a useful degree leave uni and hopefully a well paid career because of it, they're more able to pay back the large student loans they acquired at the same time (remembering that if you earn under a certain amount after leaving uni, you pay the loan back accordingly). Seems fair to me.

Since when were Arts degrees not useful?!

Society is made of more experts than just scientists, historians and mathmaticians... we need writers, we need high-artists, we need philosophers, we need people who take 4 years out of their life to understand what human existance is and how on earth to make sense of it. Obviously we also need people who didn't go to university to think about these things, but it's quite hard with a job to hold down... those with the genuine lust should be afforded the opportunity to expand themselves... it does us all a favour in the long run.

Sorry, useful as in degrees that are likely to get well paid jobs in that field afterwards. I did Classical Civilisations at degree level for 2 years, I understand completely what you mean, but going to uni and learning about philosophy is not going to get you a well paid job in the future unless you're very, very lucky. I learnt that and switched. To say I can carry on reading into the subject in my spare time, I was going to have at least 20G worth of debt and come out into 13G per year job (or in Classics terms, at least 2-3 years of volunteering until you get a paid job) regardless of increases.

It's still unmanageable amounts of money for something you can read into in your spare time, whether they raise fees or not.

I agree with you in that if you are really passionate about a subject, you should be able to follow that passion. The problem is due to the worthless university culture that has been created (where you are classed as a no-go for many jobs if you don't have a degree, no matter how unrelated), people are going into uni and picking things they're not that interested in just for the sake of getting one. How many english/philosophy students do you know who are actually, truly passionate about what they're learning?
More than that, if they are truly passionate how much do you reckon that degree is worth job-wise in relation to the amount of other 2:1 graduates also being churned out? Considering they've all been told throughout school how easy it'll be to get a good job once you have a degree, how fair is the reality on them?
Also, the sheer amount of new graduates means that those that don't have a degree, no matter how experienced, are losing out on jobs that are suddenly only accepting applicants who have one, however inexperienced. It isn't fair to them either.

The whole idea of the cuts is to encourage people into career paths that will actually help them earn decent money without the taxpayer having to foot the bill for their education in a degree that will likley land them in either a mediocre job or unemployment (increasing social security tax for everyone else again). Not only should the economy be improved with the cuts, it should mean that degrees actually become worthwhile again for those willing to face the debt.
Either way, fee increases or not, you're still going to be coming out with unaffordable amounts of debt. I know I'd rather have a 23G rather than 20G and have a degree that's worth something and has a guarantee of getting a job.

It's not like arts subjects are going to be wiped off the curriculum either, it should just mean that there is more competition for the places.. meaning they'll go to people who really work for, want, and deserve them, rather than people who couldn't get into anything else. Rather than arts degrees being practically worthless, they'll actually get some respect among employers again. Good thing for sure?

Yeah it's not ideal, yeah they should tax bankers and footballers more instead, but realisticly that isn't going to happen. Politically, I can't see many other ways out of the situation. I'm not saying it's the ideal solution but it's realistic and has good aims for the country as a whole, rather than just one segment of it.

Then again, never trust politicians to not ruin anything.

[esfandyar]

cool write up of what happened by the white chapel anarchists.

http://whitechapelanarchistgroup.wordpr ... l-account/