Millbank student demo just got real

[stephisaint]

cool write up of what happened by the white chapel anarchists.

http://whitechapelanarchistgroup.wordpr ... l-account/

I turned up on the NUS / UCL organised DEMOLITION protest against higher student fees thinking this was just going to be another trudge from point A to point B with the usual boring speeches. Yet within minutes of turning up, I could sense a buzz among many of the students there that told me this one could turn out to be a bit different – the last time I sensed that was way back when on the now infamous Poll Tax riot in 1990 that saw Trafalgar Square turned into a battle ground.

So, instead of even wanting to listen to the "boring speeches", learning something and coming up with a rational viewpoint, he ignores (refuse to try) all manners of peaceful protest and loves it when violence happens... cue rest of article.

He was there for the violence rather than the cause. I feel sorry for those people who actually disagree with the cuts trying to get heard with that sort of mentality going on.

[esfandyar]

yep boring speeches. total agreement, does absolutely nothing.

only direct action will make these fucks even consider a different alternative. keep trudging on with your "peaceful" protests.

[noam]

I agree with you completely. Part of the "cuts" is the reduction of places for subjects like English, Psychology, Arts, Classics, Media, and less useful sciences like Zoology. This essentially eliminates the (arguably but not necessarily) less academic from the system who in all probability wouldn't have a career based on their degree anyway.
This means that when students who get a useful degree leave uni and hopefully a well paid career because of it, they're more able to pay back the large student loans they acquired at the same time (remembering that if you earn under a certain amount after leaving uni, you pay the loan back accordingly). Seems fair to me.

Since when were Arts degrees not useful?!

Society is made of more experts than just scientists, historians and mathmaticians... we need writers, we need high-artists, we need philosophers, we need people who take 4 years out of their life to understand what human existance is and how on earth to make sense of it. Obviously we also need people who didn't go to university to think about these things, but it's quite hard with a job to hold down... those with the genuine lust should be afforded the opportunity to expand themselves... it does us all a favour in the long run.

exactly. this. this.this.

since when did education become about getting a job as the be-all-and-end-all.

education is about learning, its about human development, university is one place which people should be able to do this. accessibility is the key, not elitism. and before anyone chips in with some fallacious equivocation argument university being a place where you can learn is OBVIOUSLY not implying it is the ONLY place and OFCOURSE you can go down other routes and be just as if not more successful.

the point is the government are fucked for money, which has NOTHING to do with the generations of future kids who will suffer due to these cuts, and it is these kids who WILL suffer if the government pass this bill. They need to make cuts in expenditure and generate income and instead of doing this legitimately i.e. making corporations such as voda-fucking-fone pay their £6billion worth of taxt that they owe, they're choosing other methods and once again bowing to big business at the expense of the future citizens of the country.

fuck them. i cant believe theres young people on this board even siding with the government on this - regardless of whether we need to make cuts or not i dont see why anyone would be against educating more and more people for 3-4years of their adolescent life. baffling.

[the acid never lies]

This thread would be a very depressing read were it not for a handful of individuals... while it would seem that the armchair critics here are on the whole unimpressed, elsewhere the day's events will be positively inspiring, giving confidence to those who may be engaged in disputes in their workplaces, fighting to keep their local A&E open or campaigning for a living wage. Just because some of you harbour an "I'm alright Jack" mentality, don't make the mistake of assuming that everybody else is as self-interested and apathetic as you.

Solidarity is a beautiful thing. Embrace it : )

[inimini manimoe]

this thread IS depressing enough just for observing how underrated is the access to education in most people's mind
that's why india will take over while uk and us are only concerned with building the next gen of dispensable brainless drones

alien pimp

[MikeE]

So let me get this straight, students protesting at having to pay for education - that increases their income over their lifetime.

England needs to learn from the Chinese and throw a tank over the spoilt brats.

[esfandyar]

So let me get this straight, students protesting at having to pay for education - that increases their income over their lifetime.

England needs to learn from the Chinese and throw a tank over the spoilt brats.

So you want tanks on the streets? And you think it's wrong for the uk's govt to increase tuition to where students can't afford education?

Yes let's take china's progressive model for it's cruelty.

[phrex]

.
only direct action will make these fucks even consider a different alternative. keep trudging on with your "peaceful" protests.

THIS!

but a speech may give the moral legimitation for direct actions

[xarcane]

So let me get this straight, students protesting at having to pay for education - that increases their income over their lifetime.

England needs to learn from the Chinese and throw a tank over the spoilt brats.

Yeah maybe we should make like China, pull a Tibet, and re-annex New Zealand. Then we can charge your kids the equivalent amaount $20,000 a year (in NZ terms) for tuition fees. Then they can come out of uni with $70,000-80,000 in debt, $100,000+ if they want to do a masters, and then have to cope with paying rent, tax, etcs. before they even think of getting a mortgage and buying a house. Does that sound good to you son?

[dubmatters]

So let me get this straight, students protesting at having to pay for education - that increases their income over their lifetime.

England needs to learn from the Chinese and throw a tank over the spoilt brats.

Fact is degree's are now devalued to the point that not having one can seriously hurt career prospects.

I don't agree with the cost increases but I think the number of courses/places should be reduced so you have to earn your place with good results.

In Poland university is free so getting even a remotely decent job is practically impossible without one. Sound familiar?

[Pedro Sánchez]

people quietly complaining doesn't generally get anything moving

No but actively not taking part in the thing you oppose does, i.e. strikes, if all them students refused to pay back the extra fees they deem too high, what are the authorities going to do? repossess everything each one of them owns to recoup the loan, put every single one of them in prison?
Who is paying for the one million or so's worth of damage on the political parties building who now govern the country? Party sponsors or tax payer?
How many laws will now come in to play to restrict protest and give the police more powers in doing so over the next coming months?
It was a dumb move to do what they did, if people wanna act like numbskulls to get a point across, then lets forget about society and diplomacy all together.

[mickey raus]

In Poland university is free so getting even a remotely decent job is practically impossible without one. Sound familiar?

sounds very good actually

but of course not as good as making education a luxury step by step
dark ages ffw

alien pimp

[symmetricalsounds]

the not paying fees back might not be possible if they jack the money straight out your pay-cheque.

[jigglypuff]

i think its quite sad less students will have access to higher education. Alot of people will have more doors closed to them and the prospect of pursuing a rewarding career fading away.

But on a cheeky note. The students protesting for the raise already in Uni fair enough, its something i can respect morally.
BUT
surely (im a uni student aswell) 2 - 3 years down the line.. less graduates.. less people in uni.. our degrees will surely have more weight even if the UK economy is still in the dumps??
I cant see how employers will just throw the Uni pass out the window just coz of rising fees. And i dont think they would even care if you went to uni before the cuts soooo those guys smashing windows... your kind of in a good spot (in a dickhead capitalist perspective) but didnt you go to uni to get ahead?
by going to uni your kind of consciously or sub-consciously ready to play the game?

[jigglypuff]

edit

[stephisaint]

In Poland university is free so getting even a remotely decent job is practically impossible without one. Sound familiar?

sounds very good actually

but of course not as good as making education a luxury

dark ages ffw

alien pimp

I don't think anyone's saying that.
Everyone's forgetting that all uni places are ALREADY oversubscribed. This means that every year those unlucky ones that don't get in have essentially had their career prospects ruined. The idea of making the places slightly more exclusive (based on merit not any social factor) is a way of increasing the employment validity of people who havn't got a degree. Increasing trade contracts/apprenticeships at the same time for anyone who doesn't lke the idea of going to uni seems fairer overall?

In terms of fees, I don't think anyone apart from the very very rich can afford uni, even now. Fee increases don't make that much of a difference... this is why there's student loans, which are held until later in life when you can pay part off (a percentage of your wage depending on how much you earn). The percentage difference is going to be minor and you get a worthwhile degree. At the same time people who don't go to uni are classed as more employable due to more worthwhile experience. I don't particularly agree with the fee increases and don't want the extra debt, but I can see why they're doing it. It's not fair that they try to gain back the economic loss (caused by the mistakes of the past 15 or so years) through the only people possibly able to afford it (a much easier target than businesses). It's not right but it's politics. To gain anything, you have to play along. I don't agree with it but that doesn't stop it being the way it is.
...I'd agree with the protests if they were marching for the extra taxation of banks and large buisnesses instead and providing a solution to the issue. As it stands these marches didn't do much but discredit the cause they were marching for..

people quietly complaining doesn't generally get anything moving

No but actively not taking part in the thing you oppose does, i.e. strikes, if all them students refused to pay back the extra fees they deem too high, what are the authorities going to do? repossess everything each one of them owns to recoup the loan, put every single one of them in prison?
Who is paying for the one million or so's worth of damage on the political parties building who now govern the country? Party sponsors or tax payer?
How many laws will now come in to play to restrict protest and give the police more powers in doing so over the next coming months?
It was a dumb move to do what they did, if people wanna act like numbskulls to get a point across, then lets forget about society and diplomacy all together.

This too. It's a shame if the only thing that sparks public interest is violence, especially seeing as the plan for increasing tuition fees has been known for at least 6 years (when I first heard about it). The plan's all in place now. Payment strikes could work, but again the only way they'd win would be to provide the gov't with an alternative means of making back the income that would otherwise have come from the students.
It just seems to me that with the government being as it is, you need to choose/fight your battles more carefully..

[mickey raus]

In Poland university is free so getting even a remotely decent job is practically impossible without one. Sound familiar?

sounds very good actually

but of course not as good as making education a luxury

dark ages ffw

alien pimp

I don't think anyone's saying that.
Everyone's forgetting that all uni places are ALREADY oversubscribed. This means that every year those unlucky ones that don't get in have essentially had their career prospects ruined. The idea of making the places slightly more exclusive (based on merit not any social factor) is a way of increasing the employment validity of people who havn't got a degree. Increasing trade contracts/apprenticeships at the same time for anyone who doesn't lke the idea of going to uni seems fairer overall?

In terms of fees, I don't think anyone apart from the very very rich can afford uni, even now. Fee increases don't make that much of a difference... this is why there's student loans, which are held until later in life when you can pay part off (a percentage of your wage depending on how much you earn). The percentage difference is going to be minor and you get a worthwhile degree. At the same time people who don't go to uni are classed as more employable due to more worthwhile experience. I don't particularly agree with the fee increases and don't want the extra debt, but I can see why they're doing it. It's not fair that they try to gain back the economic loss (caused by the mistakes of the past 15 or so years) through the only people possibly able to afford it (a much easier target than businesses). It's not right but it's politics. To gain anything, you have to play along. I don't agree with it but that doesn't stop it being the way it is.
...I'd agree with the protests if they were marching for the extra taxation of banks and large buisnesses instead and providing a solution to the issue. As it stands these marches didn't do much but discredit the cause they were marching for..

i see where you're coming from and your posts are always quality
but i can't agree to this point: they're already rich, raising uni taxes is just like taxing more the rich
i personally know not so wealthy people who's families made great efforts to get them educated, for them every 100 pounds is a difference and can ruin things
but can't buy that this measure will make a difference for the budget or anything. it's nothing for the budget, it's everything for some people
so the only results i can foresee is more uneducated people, uk importing even more intelligence, and more uk students abroad, feeding the budgets of other countries
if the fees are already to high, then you should've been even before this shit in the streets marching for affordable education

and yeah, education should not be seen only like training for a job, this is very very very wrong!

alien pimp

[stephisaint]

In Poland university is free so getting even a remotely decent job is practically impossible without one. Sound familiar?

sounds very good actually

but of course not as good as making education a luxury

dark ages ffw

alien pimp

I don't think anyone's saying that.
Everyone's forgetting that all uni places are ALREADY oversubscribed. This means that every year those unlucky ones that don't get in have essentially had their career prospects ruined. The idea of making the places slightly more exclusive (based on merit not any social factor) is a way of increasing the employment validity of people who havn't got a degree. Increasing trade contracts/apprenticeships at the same time for anyone who doesn't lke the idea of going to uni seems fairer overall?

In terms of fees, I don't think anyone apart from the very very rich can afford uni, even now. Fee increases don't make that much of a difference... this is why there's student loans, which are held until later in life when you can pay part off (a percentage of your wage depending on how much you earn). The percentage difference is going to be minor and you get a worthwhile degree. At the same time people who don't go to uni are classed as more employable due to more worthwhile experience. I don't particularly agree with the fee increases and don't want the extra debt, but I can see why they're doing it. It's not fair that they try to gain back the economic loss (caused by the mistakes of the past 15 or so years) through the only people possibly able to afford it (a much easier target than businesses). It's not right but it's politics. To gain anything, you have to play along. I don't agree with it but that doesn't stop it being the way it is.
...I'd agree with the protests if they were marching for the extra taxation of banks and large buisnesses instead and providing a solution to the issue. As it stands these marches didn't do much but discredit the cause they were marching for..

i see where you're coming from and your posts are always quality
but i can't agree to this point: they're already rich, raising uni taxes is just like taxing more the rich
i personally know not so wealthy people who's families made great efforts to get them educated, for them every 100 pounds is a difference and can ruin things
but can't buy that this measure will make a difference for the budget or anything. it's nothing for the budget, it's everything for some people
so the only results i can foresee is more uneducated people, uk importing even more intelligence, and more uk students abroad, feeding the budgets of other countries
if the fees are already to high, then you should've been even before this shit in the streets marching for affordable education

and yeah, education should not be seen only like training for a job, this is very very very wrong!

alien pimp

I know what you mean, but I never said students were already rich. I can't technically afford uni but I'm still here. The concept of student loans/grants (which I believe are being increased for lower income families) is to take off the monetary pressure until you have a well paid job, that way the pressure is taken off the student and their family until such time as they can afford it. I know this isn't always the case though, which is a problem. On either side though they have to increase student loans in accordance with increasing fees, which should negligate the fee increase in these terms.
Saying that, I do agree that the largest fee changes are a bit extortionate and in regard to the fact that Scotland still has free university (charged to all British taxpayers) even if they study in England, it's a bit far, and I don't agree with the lowering of fees for over-seas students.

Theoretically education shouldn't only be seen in relation to getting a job but don't you think that's the main point? You get a degree to be able to work in an area you enjoy for the rest of your life. Society as it is at the moment demands you work (unless you're on social security), isn't the point of getting a good degree to help you get a good job you don't hate? I know most students I know say they're at uni to get a good job.. I havn't heard many, if any, say it's because they believe in the principle of education (until these demonstrations came about and suddenly it became an issue).
Unfortunately there's a massive problem in our country in that a rising number of young people don't care about education. If it was that important to most people, don't you think our high school grades would be higher, the x-factor viewing rates a bit lower? A society issue (which needs to be solved) regarding lack of interest in education, isn't going to be fixed by forcing students into uni courses they're not particularly interested in, and telling those that can't get into uni that they're now essentially worthless.

At university it's not as if you are being "educated" per se, you are just given 3 years of free time in which you are essentially expected to teach yourself. I have maybe 8 hours lectures a week. That isn't exactly being "taught". If knowledge and learning is something you prize in life (which a lot of people don't, having other goals), wouldn't you do this anyway? I know I still research into subjects that interest me despite not being officially "taught" them..
I also don't agree with the fact that academic learning at uni is also seen as the only form of "education". You'd probably get "taught" more on an apprenticeship scheme than you do at uni. Life experience is education. It simply depends on what you want to do with life, you shouldn't limit that to only being possible in university. What happens if people don't want to go to uni, or aren't suited to the self taught structure. I don't think it's fair that they should automatically be discriminated against (which is what is happening at the moment) because getting some degree wasn't suited to them.