Aliasing and what's the best soft synth to combat it?

slofe · Post by **slofe** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:30 pm

From my understanding aliasing is basically unwanted noise in your sound yes? i'll post an example of what I mean http://www.4filehosting.com/file/6807/Sofar-wav.html I posted this sample in another thread but this follows on nicely.

You will be able to hear a higher pitched tone mixed in with the sound and no amount of eqing etc can get rid of it, believe me i've tried. I used to use Reason but now use project5 solely for it's ease of use and ability to handle vsts. This high pitched sound has plagued me everytime I make a sound using LFO to cutoff modulation and it's doing my head in.

So can any of you recommend me a soft synth that's not extremely difficult to learn and has good filtering/anti aliasing so I can eliminate that pesky little sound once and for all. I use albino 3 synth at the moment which I quite like but it unfortunately keeps including that high pitched sound, so if anyone's figured out how to get rid of it using albino please tell me how or better still send me some patches. Cheers

mamosa · Post by **mamosa** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:55 pm

hmmm surley you just need to filter dem noises out!

you sure it aint ya speakers bro,

The Maelstrom in Reason can get some sick wobbles on it, Never had any problems with Albino either!

mamosa · Post by **mamosa** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:55 pm

Double post

slofe · Post by **slofe** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:24 pm

mamosa wrote:hmmm surley you just need to filter dem noises out!

you sure it aint ya speakers bro,

The Maelstrom in Reason can get some sick wobbles on it, Never had any problems with Albino either!

No it's not my speakers, I can get the wobbles fine just that little noise inn the background and I can't seam to get rid of it.

batfink · Post by **batfink** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:59 pm

in answer to your pm, ive made some progress. but i still cant do super clean wubwub.

i think its a waste of time trying to emulate that tho, so im just trying to get wobbles and basslines i like.

and i agree that something liek nitro will do a much better job than anything else.

filter keytracking can come in very handy too.

and a little bird mentioned resampling and stretching being the key.

sick rebel · Post by **sick rebel** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:19 pm

you could filter it out but I think there is something seriously wrong with your setup when you're getting all that background noise from just soft synths.

Batfink wrote:and a little bird mentioned resampling and stretching being the key.

too much fun when your synth has an lfo in it before resampling...

parson · Post by **parson** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:00 pm

yeah you prolly need a new soundcard

slofe · Post by **slofe** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:59 am

Yes I realise i'm gonna sound like a hopeless noob saying this but I didn't think my soundcard was overly important

.

My setup is a crappy Dell inspiron laptop using it's onboard soundcard
Project 5 Sequencer
Albino 3
Guru Drums
Various VST effects
Wharfedale Diamond 8.1 monitors

So if anyone can give me some tips on how to improve my setup to get a better quality sound i'll appreciate it (I reckon you're probably gonna say soundcard) but anything else please share

.

batfink · Post by **batfink** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:36 am

get an echo indigo or something similar. MUCH better than the inbuilt soundchips.

I used the nvidia onboard sound on my dualcore PC for a little while and when i finally installed my soundcard the difference was much greater than id have expected. To the point where i had to rebalance whole mixes and re-eq parts.

slofe · Post by **slofe** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:57 am

That is quite some difference. I think it must be to do with my setup cause people have said surely just filter that sound out, but if I put the cutoff any lower you won't hear the sound at all, and if you listen carefully that sound comes in a nat's cock after the attack of the wump.

So any recommendations for a good soundcard that's nice n cheap for a bum like me?

batfink · Post by **batfink** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:14 pm

these are just examples, there are many alternatives.

external usb one

http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/page/shop ... t_id/15384

internal pcmcia card one (more portable)

http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/page/shop ... ct_id/2771

both about 100 quid though. Shop around and you might find a deal.

jahtao · Post by **jahtao** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:47 pm

Woah there you don't need to buy new shit!

Why would changing the sound card make a difference? The sound card wasn't in the signal chain that created this sound was it? It was only used for monitoring, right? Presumably this file was created using an internal bounce (mixdown) rather than being played out of outputs and recorded back in (thru soundcard inputs), am i right? And you weren't clipping any outputs or plugins etc?

If this is the case that annoying noise you're talking about is definitely created by a budget filter design. It sure sounds like that type of noise. And yeah i call it aliasing too (tho' i'm not 110% sure that it is really aliasing but i think it is - so well done for corrrectly identifying it).

You might find that just slightly changing some of your filter parameters will fix it? Worth a shot? Just a slight tweak on the reso, cutoff, velo, slope or something for a work around?

I don't get that crap with Fabfilter Twin and the Arturia stuff that i use. But it is worth mentioning that i'm sure i heard filter aliasing on at least one or two totally rocking releases. You could say its part of the bedroom / ghetto 'sound'. You gotta ask yourself how much you care, and what's really important to you now?

Cedar Retouch could fix it btw

grizzle · Post by **grizzle** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:03 pm

Aliasing is a problem found in digital devices. It happens when a frequency goes above half the sampling rate and folds back into the original sound. This can happen fairly easily especially with softsynths as the upper harmonics of a sound can go well above half the sampling rate.

Most softsynths get around it by using bandlimited oscs or essentially oscillators with a filter at the top end so the freq can't go above half the sampling rate.

I had a listen to the sample I can't hear any aliasing... so i'm not sure what your hearing.

slofe · Post by **slofe** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 11:03 pm

jahtao wrote:Woah there you don't need to buy new shit!

Why would changing the sound card make a difference? The sound card wasn't in the signal chain that created this sound was it? It was only used for monitoring, right? Presumably this file was created using an internal bounce (mixdown) rather than being played out of outputs and recorded back in (thru soundcard inputs), am i right? And you weren't clipping any outputs or plugins etc?

If this is the case that annoying noise you're talking about is definitely created by a budget filter design. It sure sounds like that type of noise. And yeah i call it aliasing too (tho' i'm not 110% sure that it is really aliasing but i think it is - so well done for corrrectly identifying it).

You might find that just slightly changing some of your filter parameters will fix it? Worth a shot? Just a slight tweak on the reso, cutoff, velo, slope or something for a work around?

I don't get that crap with Fabfilter Twin and the Arturia stuff that i use. But it is worth mentioning that i'm sure i heard filter aliasing on at least one or two totally rocking releases. You could say its part of the bedroom / ghetto 'sound'. You gotta ask yourself how much you care, and what's really important to you now?

Cedar Retouch could fix it btw

That's definately hit the nail on the head, I use no inputs at all, I don't even have a keyboard.

You're also right about that noise being heard on releases, I was listening to a track by the others and you can hear it on that (the one that samples light up your spliff).

I don't use any filter vsts so I should probably get on that (still learning) i'll check out the ones you mentioned.

I've kind of got a bee in my bonnet about getting a new soundcard, surely it will be a worthwhile investment and I have a mate who works for a pc supplier so I can get them cheaper

Thanks everyone for the advice.

parson · Post by **parson** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:14 am

if you're gonna get a soundcard anyway you might wanna just get a midicontroller that has one built in

slofe · Post by **slofe** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 9:27 am

Parson wrote:if you're gonna get a soundcard anyway you might wanna just get a midicontroller that has one built in

Any recommendations? midi's a whole new ball game for me, I always just draw my notes in.

batfink · Post by **batfink** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:55 am

jahtao wrote:Woah there you don't need to buy new shit!

Why would changing the sound card make a difference?

well soundcard audio is shit (you get hiss, hard disk chatter and electrical interference) and freq response is all over the shop. spending a few quid on a good 24bit soundcard means you can at least rely on what you;re hearing.

its not essential sure.... but imo it'll help!

and isnt cedar retouch a really expensive high end product that runs on dedicated hardware?

Sharmaji · Post by **Sharmaji** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 2:21 pm

a couple of ways that sound could be caused.

first guess: you have the resonance set so high on the synth that when the cutoff is up high, it starts self-oscillating. try turning down the resonance and see what happens.
also try cutting around 8-9k, deep and sharp, after the synth.

a multiband compressor that pushes the frequency down as it comes up could help, too-- that way it won't dull the sound overall.

and then the big question: is it actually audible in your final production? how things sound solo'd doesn't matter-- it's all about the song as a whole.

if you're only working in the computer and not bouncing stuff out through a mixer or using any sort of hardware, or synching to anything-- your soundcard isn't going to make a lick of difference. if you're recording audio in, then yes-- but if all you do is softsynths and bounce/render your file internally-- then no. don't worry about it.

jahtao · Post by **jahtao** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:29 pm

Batfink wrote:
jahtao wrote: and isnt cedar retouch a really expensive high end product that runs on dedicated hardware?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. They do plugin versions too. I use the SADiE version. I only mentioned it coz its the only way i know that can transparently remove shit like that.

Here's the geeks wot make it + their oscars:

[/img] http://plus.maths.org/latestnews/jan-ap ... _hicks.jpg [img]

Geeks!

...Dons!

batfink · Post by **batfink** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:55 pm

yeah cedar stuff sounds very impressive, not that ive actually heard it yagetme. often hear it mentioned in the Sound on Sound interviews, esp with remastering peeps.

thing is i was listening to a magnetic man track and the aliasing and fuzz that warbles around the bass actually sounds quite cool. think its the track with the kraftwerky vocal saying shuuperbikes etc etc

i guess its one of those things where the processing required to get a really fat synth sound often leaves odd aural side effects. probably not worth getting too hung up on unless its killing the vibe dead.

dare i say it, maybe its time to leave wobble alone and try something new. its easy to get lazy and just whack an lfo over fecking everything. i know cos ive resorted to it two many times.

Aliasing and what's the best soft synth to combat it?

Aliasing and what's the best soft synth to combat it?

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