Is The Web Destroying Creativity? (from Seed Magazine)

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Re: Is The Web Destroying Creativity? (from Seed Magazine)

Post by AllNightDayDream » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:12 am

boomstix wrote:skimmed the article because his main points are waste: 'there are no new genres in the last 20 years... but he admits he may be out of touch'. yeah... good one. why bother to get in touch and actually learn about it when you can just spout crap that you already admitted you didn't research and is obviously wrong.

even if he wants to limit 'music' to mean 'pop music' then he needs to recognise that pop music as an industry only really took off after the second world war. so it's a flash in the pan compared to the history of actual music and in no way represents what is going on creatively or culturally. we've moved on to new things already and that industry is evapourating.

no one makes a living from creativity on the net... yeah, except the whole fucking web design industry. google, facebook, multi billion dollar businesses based on creativity on the net.

the web is like the telephone. it's a tool to do things. what you use it for is up to you. don't expect it to do the work for you.

ironically, a quick google search could have saved him from embarrassing himself with these hopelessly out of touch views.
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Re: Is The Web Destroying Creativity? (from Seed Magazine)

Post by test_recordings » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:33 am

Couldn't genre names be killing creativity as to keep the genre in existence you have to make the same constituent elements present each time hence infinitely repeating?
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Re: Is The Web Destroying Creativity? (from Seed Magazine)

Post by ahier » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:43 pm

digging up an old thread here, but... if you read the book, the music genre argument is a very small proportion of it. one of his more compelling arguments is against wikis and social networking sites. rather than, as in the old days of the web, people having personal sites they designed themselves, now 'people' are represented as statistics. sites like facebook give you options out of categories, so relationship status as single or in a relationship or married, and a selection of things to 'like'. So rather than unique, creative expressions of our personality, we are now representing ourselves as a part of a database. rather than using the machine to show our personality, we create our personality out of 'bits'; all it really does is make an approximation of personality, but more often than not people take it as the whole.

the problem with wikis is that people who add to it are not putting their knowledge to a unique purpose, they are handing it to the wiki itself. information that isnt necessarily objective is presented in an objective and authoritarian way; more often people are taking it as an authority too. so individuals uniqueness of knowledge is being smudged by the collective desire for freedom, which actually is more limiting than anything.

and regarding music, whilst his points ignore the fringes of creativity, as a general trend he does have a point. whilst each decade since post war has brought its own musical revolutions, since the 90s it has somewhat stagnated. lots of new types of music are really just a mashup of old types. Whilst this is definitely debateable, it definitely seems to be the case in mainstream media. he argues that the desire for creative commons and free media has led to this stagnation. musicians genuinely innovating are rewarded less for their creativity, where a cobbled togegether mashup of old media, of the sort that litters youtube, can gain just as much attention as a genuinely inspired artistic creation, what is the point?

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Re: Is The Web Destroying Creativity? (from Seed Magazine)

Post by ketamine » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:17 pm

WatchYourStep wrote:
Badman Juice wrote:tl;dr

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Re: Is The Web Destroying Creativity? (from Seed Magazine)

Post by hasezwei » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:17 pm

re: the no new genres argument, i think he's somehow right. even with the underground, let's just say since the early 00's instead of 90's.

let's take dnb as an example: it's been years and we still have neuro kids trying to be noisia, check channels like neurofunkgrid and you'll see that everyone sounds the same. from time to time a new production technique is found to change up the sound of the bassline a little but from then on it's only a couple months until people found the secret and start ripping it off again.
oh right, i know autonomic changed the game lately. well guess what, i recently heard a 4 hour set of "minimal dnb" consisting solely of tunes that try and rip off that. that's the internet generation right here: a dj who claims to play cutting edge music because mainstream dnb all sounds the same dropping tunes that all sound different in the same way :roll:

hell you could even take single artists, did you notice how there's tons of skrillex-y tunes out there now? and i don't mean his basslines, i mean the whole poppy house-y vocal choppy shit, basically everything that made you think skrillex when hearing a tune.

so what's the result of all this?
releasing your music to the public effectively devalues it instantly.
the more success and exposure your music has, the faster people will flood the internet with carbon copies of the music you put hard work, time and your personality into. if you've spent so much time finding your own musical place, your personal way of expressing yourself through music, you wouldn't want to be forced to abandon that after a couple of releases because by then the musical concept will be devalued by gazillions of bandwagon jumpers. oh sure, it's great from a listeners perspective if your favorite artists keep pushing the envelope to stay ahead of the locust swarm that is amateur producers like me, but from an artist's perspective i imagine it to be horrible. innovation should happen naturally, not be forced.
and in fact i think we're already experiencing forced innovation everywhere: mashups of musical ideas, new ideas for the sake of new ideas, even the newest most exciting stuff is just a rehash of other shit. it's no different from people making their first dubstep track with a nirvana sample and declaring it to be a new genre, is it?


TL;DR
fuck the internet, music is dead :corntard:

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Re: Is The Web Destroying Creativity? (from Seed Magazine)

Post by ahier » Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:15 pm

hasezwei wrote:re: the no new genres argument, i think he's somehow right. even with the underground, let's just say since the early 00's instead of 90's.

let's take dnb as an example: it's been years and we still have neuro kids trying to be noisia, check channels like neurofunkgrid and you'll see that everyone sounds the same. from time to time a new production technique is found to change up the sound of the bassline a little but from then on it's only a couple months until people found the secret and start ripping it off again.
oh right, i know autonomic changed the game lately. well guess what, i recently heard a 4 hour set of "minimal dnb" consisting solely of tunes that try and rip off that. that's the internet generation right here: a dj who claims to play cutting edge music because mainstream dnb all sounds the same dropping tunes that all sound different in the same way :roll:

hell you could even take single artists, did you notice how there's tons of skrillex-y tunes out there now? and i don't mean his basslines, i mean the whole poppy house-y vocal choppy shit, basically everything that made you think skrillex when hearing a tune.

so what's the result of all this?
releasing your music to the public effectively devalues it instantly.
the more success and exposure your music has, the faster people will flood the internet with carbon copies of the music you put hard work, time and your personality into. if you've spent so much time finding your own musical place, your personal way of expressing yourself through music, you wouldn't want to be forced to abandon that after a couple of releases because by then the musical concept will be devalued by gazillions of bandwagon jumpers. oh sure, it's great from a listeners perspective if your favorite artists keep pushing the envelope to stay ahead of the locust swarm that is amateur producers like me, but from an artist's perspective i imagine it to be horrible. innovation should happen naturally, not be forced.
and in fact i think we're already experiencing forced innovation everywhere: mashups of musical ideas, new ideas for the sake of new ideas, even the newest most exciting stuff is just a rehash of other shit. it's no different from people making their first dubstep track with a nirvana sample and declaring it to be a new genre, is it?


TL;DR
fuck the internet, music is dead :corntard:
exactly, a lot of the new sounds have been 'updates' of old ones. autonomic - dnb recontextualised through early electro and techno. future garage - well, that one is obvious. swamp 81 is more plundering of electro.
its not that the music that is created via this is bad, in fact, i enjoy a lot of it. but it does seem to epitomise a certain creative quagmire, and there is a definite correlation with web 2.0 ethics. whether its a causal link is debatable, but there is an argument for it for sure.

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Re: Is The Web Destroying Creativity? (from Seed Magazine)

Post by 64hz » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:43 pm

"The Web hasn’t been designed to do anything. And so it doesn’t do anything, much less anything smart, creative, or suggesting awareness."

are we talking about the Web or Jaron Lanier?

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Re: Is The Web Destroying Creativity? (from Seed Magazine)

Post by AllNightDayDream » Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:00 pm

One thing you can always count on is creativity. This is still so stupid, because all you are taking into account are mainstream styles of music and by definition, appealing music tends to sound the same. There is no such thing as originality, all music is just a play on certain patterns and styles. Just because you use the same techniques and sounds as someone else doesn't somehow make you devoid of any creativity. This is just a case of people making stupid sweeping generalizations and instead of digging to find the absolutely amazing artists that keep popping up and keep churning out gems they waste their time writing books on how the internet of all things kills creativity. Fucking stupid.

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Re: Is The Web Destroying Creativity? (from Seed Magazine)

Post by gorillabearbear » Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:55 am

ahier wrote:digging up an old thread here, but... if you read the book, the music genre argument is a very small proportion of it. one of his more compelling arguments is against wikis and social networking sites. rather than, as in the old days of the web, people having personal sites they designed themselves, now 'people' are represented as statistics. sites like facebook give you options out of categories, so relationship status as single or in a relationship or married, and a selection of things to 'like'. So rather than unique, creative expressions of our personality, we are now representing ourselves as a part of a database. rather than using the machine to show our personality, we create our personality out of 'bits'; all it really does is make an approximation of personality, but more often than not people take it as the whole.

the problem with wikis is that people who add to it are not putting their knowledge to a unique purpose, they are handing it to the wiki itself. information that isnt necessarily objective is presented in an objective and authoritarian way; more often people are taking it as an authority too. so individuals uniqueness of knowledge is being smudged by the collective desire for freedom, which actually is more limiting than anything.

and regarding music, whilst his points ignore the fringes of creativity, as a general trend he does have a point. whilst each decade since post war has brought its own musical revolutions, since the 90s it has somewhat stagnated. lots of new types of music are really just a mashup of old types. Whilst this is definitely debateable, it definitely seems to be the case in mainstream media. he argues that the desire for creative commons and free media has led to this stagnation. musicians genuinely innovating are rewarded less for their creativity, where a cobbled togegether mashup of old media, of the sort that litters youtube, can gain just as much attention as a genuinely inspired artistic creation, what is the point?
This type of filtering and recontextualising isn't really new to the internet generation though is it? Perhaps this dude should address his issues starting with early 20th century Modernism, tell TS Eliot he was being creatively bankrupt when he wrote the Wasteland, because it relied so heavily on recontextualising older poetry and art, or James Joyce for using the Odyssey as the basis for Ulysses. I think he'd find that a lot of people would have some sympathy with that argument. Even if you don't think it's convincing to say that the things (it seems) he's complaining about originate then, you can definitely argue that they originate in the 60s/70s with postmodernism and that - so much postmodernist art relies on reappropriating previous artistic products - whether it's transporting tropes to new settings, or lending them more modern concerns, like with neo-noir cinema, or being more explicitly reflexive - like with Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are dead, or indeed most of Tom Stoppard's earlier plays. If you really wanted to you could trace it back even further, such as the way in which Romantic poets revived the greek classical form of the Ode because they fucking loved the ancient greeks.

I think the problem isn't with that at all. I mean obviously youtube crazes and stuff aren't TS Eliot, but that's more because the internet lacks the forms of quality control that traditional media develops, which you might argue is a good thing but there is certainly a noticeable culture in some quarters of the internet of not being critical or judgemental enough, while people don't necessarily put as much thought into their artistic products; if you want to send a book in to a publisher, that's something you think hard about and spend time working on, because if it's shit you've wasted everyone's time, mostly your own. The same sort of risks aren't there when you are putting something up on the internet for free. The other thing I suppose is just the disposability of so much popular culture, and the speed with which fads and crazes are consumed and jettisoned. If something becomes a truly worldwide phenomenon, which the internet makes possible - then you might see an intense flurry of creativity around it, but every permutation is explored and then people just get bored of it. Does this make sense at all?

One thing that I think makes dubstep creatively a cut above, or used to, is that while the internet helped draw a geographically disparate fanbase together and cement the idea that there was a market for it, it was being backed up by tangible, old-fashioned productivity - club nights, vinyl pressings, independent record-labels and so on. The best of what the internet offers and the best of what traditional media can offer, if you see what I mean.

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Re: Is The Web Destroying Creativity? (from Seed Magazine)

Post by ahier » Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:10 am

gorillabearbear wrote:
ahier wrote:digging up an old thread here, but... if you read the book, the music genre argument is a very small proportion of it. one of his more compelling arguments is against wikis and social networking sites. rather than, as in the old days of the web, people having personal sites they designed themselves, now 'people' are represented as statistics. sites like facebook give you options out of categories, so relationship status as single or in a relationship or married, and a selection of things to 'like'. So rather than unique, creative expressions of our personality, we are now representing ourselves as a part of a database. rather than using the machine to show our personality, we create our personality out of 'bits'; all it really does is make an approximation of personality, but more often than not people take it as the whole.

the problem with wikis is that people who add to it are not putting their knowledge to a unique purpose, they are handing it to the wiki itself. information that isnt necessarily objective is presented in an objective and authoritarian way; more often people are taking it as an authority too. so individuals uniqueness of knowledge is being smudged by the collective desire for freedom, which actually is more limiting than anything.

and regarding music, whilst his points ignore the fringes of creativity, as a general trend he does have a point. whilst each decade since post war has brought its own musical revolutions, since the 90s it has somewhat stagnated. lots of new types of music are really just a mashup of old types. Whilst this is definitely debateable, it definitely seems to be the case in mainstream media. he argues that the desire for creative commons and free media has led to this stagnation. musicians genuinely innovating are rewarded less for their creativity, where a cobbled togegether mashup of old media, of the sort that litters youtube, can gain just as much attention as a genuinely inspired artistic creation, what is the point?
This type of filtering and recontextualising isn't really new to the internet generation though is it? Perhaps this dude should address his issues starting with early 20th century Modernism, tell TS Eliot he was being creatively bankrupt when he wrote the Wasteland, because it relied so heavily on recontextualising older poetry and art, or James Joyce for using the Odyssey as the basis for Ulysses. I think he'd find that a lot of people would have some sympathy with that argument. Even if you don't think it's convincing to say that the things (it seems) he's complaining about originate then, you can definitely argue that they originate in the 60s/70s with postmodernism and that - so much postmodernist art relies on reappropriating previous artistic products - whether it's transporting tropes to new settings, or lending them more modern concerns, like with neo-noir cinema, or being more explicitly reflexive - like with Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are dead, or indeed most of Tom Stoppard's earlier plays. If you really wanted to you could trace it back even further, such as the way in which Romantic poets revived the greek classical form of the Ode because they fucking loved the ancient greeks.

I think the problem isn't with that at all. I mean obviously youtube crazes and stuff aren't TS Eliot, but that's more because the internet lacks the forms of quality control that traditional media develops, which you might argue is a good thing but there is certainly a noticeable culture in some quarters of the internet of not being critical or judgemental enough, while people don't necessarily put as much thought into their artistic products; if you want to send a book in to a publisher, that's something you think hard about and spend time working on, because if it's shit you've wasted everyone's time, mostly your own. The same sort of risks aren't there when you are putting something up on the internet for free. The other thing I suppose is just the disposability of so much popular culture, and the speed with which fads and crazes are consumed and jettisoned. If something becomes a truly worldwide phenomenon, which the internet makes possible - then you might see an intense flurry of creativity around it, but every permutation is explored and then people just get bored of it. Does this make sense at all?

One thing that I think makes dubstep creatively a cut above, or used to, is that while the internet helped draw a geographically disparate fanbase together and cement the idea that there was a market for it, it was being backed up by tangible, old-fashioned productivity - club nights, vinyl pressings, independent record-labels and so on. The best of what the internet offers and the best of what traditional media can offer, if you see what I mean.
no its true, i guess, the internet just makes everything accessible, which just accelerates and exaggerates the action of something becoming a fad. and you are right about postmodernism, though people have complained about the flatness and unoriginality of that too, over the years. but the fact that there is such visibility of the proliferation of culture creates a generation of users that dont demand more from it, because that flatness of creative commons is all they have known.
(i still havent decided if i agree with lanier or not, im just arguing his side for the sake of discussion here)
i saw an interesting article on the bbc site about how the internet has changed how people think about learning - when asked a challenging question they are more likely to think about how to search for the answer on the internet rather than the actual answer. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14145045

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Re: Is The Web Destroying Creativity? (from Seed Magazine)

Post by karmacazee » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:54 am

This thread has inspired me to write a long ass essay - Why Is Music So Shit? I'm even quoting in an academic manner. I'll link it when I'm done - it's getting tl:dr though, and I should really be looking for a job. But fuck it. This is interesting.
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Re: Is The Web Destroying Creativity? (from Seed Magazine)

Post by magma » Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:22 am

He's missed the point.
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Re: Is The Web Destroying Creativity? (from Seed Magazine)

Post by alphacat » Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:49 pm

The other thing to take into consideration - whether or not you agree with any/all of the assertions being made - is that it's all pretty moot.

It's not going to stop what technology has initiated, and other than a community ("real" or "virtual" - if those qualifiers even work anymore) exercising rigorous self-discipline, what's been evolving for the last few decades will continue to plunge farther and farther in the direction it's been going. In fact, ironically it just may be another technological sea-change that plots a new course for us culturally. What that might be... no idea. Raprep machines? Quantum computing? Nanotech? Who knows.
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Re: Is The Web Destroying Creativity? (from Seed Magazine)

Post by noam » Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:01 pm

the truly creative spirits rise to the top eventually

if we lose a few along the way there will be more to replace them

dont worry, or be scared that we've killed music

guilt over a fear of the threat of a potential but in actuality, a non-event is a very religious, specifically christian/islamic way of thinking which just gives the wafflers an excuse to waffle

music and art has always been something that many do and few are great at, even fewer remembered and fewer liked when remembered - nothing has changed.

nothing is 'destroying' creativity, we're just exposed to the general standard of creativity that most people have... and those limitations are sobering, but not telling

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