Writing in key/key qualities

[xrylex]

a lot of them seem to be quite negative! yet tunes written in those keys don't sound gloomy or depressing to me.

yeah im with you on this... and i think tempo has interesting effects on this, as well rhythm, and choices for chord progression as well.

i know that 100 bpm tracks that ive done in D# minor or F minor have a much heavier/depressing feel compared to the 140bpm tracks that ive written in the same keys.

[narcissus]

so after a lil passive aggressive patronizing.. you actually agree?
i mean.. if you move songs up and down keys.. sure it changes the feel of it a little.. but not a TON.. surely it wouldn't change heated passion into purity of spirit.. there are many things that add to feel of a song. just cuz one creative person found each key to have certain tendencies.. doesn't mean shit. this is like nigel of 'spinal tap' claiming D minor is the saddest of all keys.

[AllNightDayDream]

Not to say as an artist you can't associate keys with certain things, but that's entirely subjective and probably has a lot to do with your experience playing in those keys. Taken from your link:

Many theoretical works of the eighteenth century explicitly assign certain affectations or emotional characteristics to different keys. Though these writings often contradict each other as to what these characteristics actually are, it is well known that many composers carefully chose keys for similar affectations throughout their lives. To Mattheson, for example, D major was "somewhat shrill and stubborn," while to Rousseau it was suited to "gaiety or brilliance."

[therapist]

Because of that massive post by you that implied exactly that?

you are right he didnt say it was a note... but Fminor can only refer to A KEY/SCALE or a Chord. neither are a single note. i certainly did not imply at any point that these qualities were relating to a root note.... so where is the confusion???

Because it was said that it is only the structure of the key (rather than the position of it) and how you play those notes that dictate the kind of emotion it creates.

And my point was that the "interactions/intervals/progressions" within (say) any of the minor scales are the same with equal tempered tuning instruments. No need to get so defensive and patronizing because I asked a genuine question, I'm not rubbishing it.

I do doubt that someone would listen to two identical patterns in B and C and be able to hear the the contrast in mood between them that you posted, not sure how people with perfect pitch might hear it though.

[drake89]

I do doubt that someone would listen to two identical patterns in B and C and be able to hear the the contrast in mood between them that you posted, not sure how people with perfect pitch might hear it though.

You don't need perfect pitch to hear the differences between a B and C scale...They sound different but not necessarily exactly how that long list above describes them. This is probably the farthest extreme of subjectivity that we're dealing with hear.

[mesc]

I think the different chords that are associated with each key signature attribute more to the feeling it has rather than moving tonic to tonic in that key. Each note within a key or scale can have a chord built upon it. So, in a seven note scale you will end up with seven chords where each degree of the scale becomes the root note of it's own chord.

The formula for building triads over a major scale goes I major, II minor, III minor, IV major, V major, VI minor, VII diminished (I've used roman numerals to be arbitrary notes within a scale.

For example: The key C major has the notes "C, D, E, F, G, A, B". Building triads for C major would look like this -

"C major , D minor, E minor, F major, G major, A minor, B diminished"

These are the different chords that are associated with the key C major. When using C major one generally should construct their chord progressions using these chords. If I picked the chord progression "I - IV - V - V" it would go -

"C major - F major - G major - G major".

Now, moving to the key of G major. The key of G major has the notes "G, A, B, C, D, E, F#". Building triads over the notes in G major would look like this -

"G major, A minor, B minor, C major, D major, E minor, F# diminished"

Using the same chord progression as I used before (I - IV - V - V) in G major you would get -

"G major - C major - D major - D major"

If you play both chord progressions that I've created above you will definitely get a bit of a different feeling. Now keep in mind that all feelings are completely subjective. There's really no way to know whether a happy feeling is the same to me as to anyone else. With this in mind I think the feelings that were given to the different key signatures earlier in the thread should be taken as guidelines for your experimentation.

To summarize, the key that you're working in as well as your chord progressions, instruments used and intervals between notes in your song (among other things like the articulation of how the instrument is played or the range it is in) all collectively will attribute a particular feeling in your song.

[therapist]

I do doubt that someone would listen to two identical patterns in B and C and be able to hear the the contrast in mood between them that you posted, not sure how people with perfect pitch might hear it though.

You don't need perfect pitch to hear the differences between a B and C scale...They sound different but not necessarily exactly how that long list above describes them. This is probably the farthest extreme of subjectivity that we're dealing with hear.

My point was that with perfect pitch you might simply recognise the scales because you know what is a B and a C rather than hearing a different emotion in the scale. As I say I just don't think if you heard those two scales in isolation you would hear anything like those descriptions. I'd be intrigued if there is a reason why you would, but no-one has given one.

[blinx]

Music Theory 101 definitions to the rescue lol

seriously though just started reading "this is your brain on music" because of this thread mentioning it and DAMN is like the holy grail of music theory and science. I know theory from a more classic symphonic background but this book makes way more senese to me and how i want to compose music.

[slothrop]

There's a great deal of difference if you're writing for classical instruments or voices, because there are hard limits on which notes you can use - so, for instance, if you write string music in E flat major and don't get the double basses to tune down, then you can't get the root note played as low as if you wrote in E major, or if you write for voices then it'll make a big difference whether the root note is at the very top of some of the singers range or just beyond it. Also, on some instruments, different keys feel different to play - the obvious case being C major on the piano versus something with a lot of black notes in.

So historically, different keys will have tended to lend themselves better to certain sorts of writing, and hence may have developed certain associations.

I don't know of any actual difference between them as you'd hear them played on a synth by a sequencer, though. It's worth bearing in mind that that extended thing about the characteristics of the keys was written in 1806, so it's not exactly the cutting edge of modern thinking on the matter.

[AllNightDayDream]

There's a great deal of difference if you're writing for classical instruments or voices, because there are hard limits on which notes you can use - so, for instance, if you write string music in E flat major and don't get the double basses to tune down, then you can't get the root note played as low as if you wrote in E major, or if you write for voices then it'll make a big difference whether the root note is at the very top of some of the singers range or just beyond it. Also, on some instruments, different keys feel different to play - the obvious case being C major on the piano versus something with a lot of black notes in.

So historically, different keys will have tended to lend themselves better to certain sorts of writing, and hence may have developed certain associations.

I don't know of any actual difference between them as you'd hear them played on a synth by a sequencer, though. It's worth bearing in mind that that extended thing about the characteristics of the keys was written in 1806, so it's not exactly the cutting edge of modern thinking on the matter.

Yup. That's why the most common arrangements in big bands are in Bb

[leeany]

I think the different chords that are associated with each key signature attribute more to the feeling it has rather than moving tonic to tonic in that key. Each note within a key or scale can have a chord built upon it. So, in a seven note scale you will end up with seven chords where each degree of the scale becomes the root note of it's own chord.

The formula for building triads over a major scale goes I major, II minor, III minor, IV major, V major, VI minor, VII diminished (I've used roman numerals to be arbitrary notes within a scale.

For example: The key C major has the notes "C, D, E, F, G, A, B". Building triads for C major would look like this -

"C major , D minor, E minor, F major, G major, A minor, B diminished"

These are the different chords that are associated with the key C major. When using C major one generally should construct their chord progressions using these chords. If I picked the chord progression "I - IV - V - V" it would go -

"C major - F major - G major - G major".

Now, moving to the key of G major. The key of G major has the notes "G, A, B, C, D, E, F#". Building triads over the notes in G major would look like this -

"G major, A minor, B minor, C major, D major, E minor, F# diminished"

Using the same chord progression as I used before (I - IV - V - V) in G major you would get -

"G major - C major - D major - D major"

If you play both chord progressions that I've created above you will definitely get a bit of a different feeling. Now keep in mind that all feelings are completely subjective. There's really no way to know whether a happy feeling is the same to me as to anyone else. With this in mind I think the feelings that were given to the different key signatures earlier in the thread should be taken as guidelines for your experimentation.

To summarize, the key that you're working in as well as your chord progressions, instruments used and intervals between notes in your song (among other things like the articulation of how the instrument is played or the range it is in) all collectively will attribute a particular feeling in your song.

hey which notes make up the chord C major etc. ? the 1st, 3rd and 5th in that scale (C,E,G) ?

[brianisdead]

Yep those are the notes in C major.

and I'll add that because music is about ratios, the tonic key doesnt really matter except for how it relates to the range the instrument. But for dubstep, some keys must be better than others because you probably want the root or the fifth to be the hardest hitting (most resonating) frequency. What do you guys think are the most pleasing bass frequencies?

[dogmancar]

there are HUGE differences in the "feel" of each key.
i cant remember where i got this from originally but regardless here a list of characteristics:



C Major: 
Completely Pure. Its character is: innocence, simplicity, naïvety, children's talk. 



C Minor: 
Declaration of love and at the same time the lament of unhappy love. All languishing, longing, sighing of the love-sick soul lies in this key. 



Db Major: 
A leering key, degenerating into grief and rapture. It cannot laugh, but it can smile; it cannot howl, but it can at least grimace its crying.--Consequently only unusual characters and feelings can be brought out in this key. 



C# Minor: 
Penitential lamentation, intimate conversation with God, the friend and help-meet of life; sighs of disappointed friendship and love lie in its radius. 



D Major: 
The key of triumph, of Hallejuahs, of war-cries, of victory-rejoicing. Thus, the inviting symphonies, the marches, holiday songs and heaven-rejoicing choruses are set in this key. 



D Minor: 
Melancholy womanliness, the spleen and humours brood. 



Eb Major: 
The key of love, of devotion, of intimate conversation with God. 



D# Minor: 
Feelings of the anxiety of the soul's deepest distress, of brooding despair, of blackest depresssion, of the most gloomy condition of the soul. Every fear, every hesitation of the shuddering heart, breathes out of horrible

D# minor: If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key. 



E Major: 
Noisy shouts of joy, laughing pleasure and not yet complete, full delight lies in E Major. 



E minor: 
Naïve, womanly innocent declaration of love, lament without grumbling; sighs accompanied by few tears; this key speaks of the imminent hope of resolving in the pure happiness of C major. 



F Major: 
Complaisance & Calm. 



F Minor: 
Deep depression, funereal lament, groans of misery and longing for the grave. 



F# Major: 
Triumph over difficulty, free sigh of relief utered when hurdles are surmounted; echo of a soul which has fiercely struggled and finally conquered lies in all uses of this key. 



F# Minor: 
A gloomy key: it tugs at passion as a dog biting a dress. Resentment and discontent are its language. 



G Major: 
Everything rustic, idyllic and lyrical, every calm and satisfied passion, every tender gratitude for true friendship and faithful love,--in a word every gentle and peaceful emotion of the heart is correctly expressed by this key. 



G Minor: 
Discontent, uneasiness, worry about a failed scheme; bad-tempered gnashing of teeth; in a word: resentment and dislike. 



Ab Major: 
Key of the grave. Death, grave, putrefaction, judgment, eternity lie in its radius. 



Ab Minor: 
Grumbler, heart squeezed until it suffocates; wailing lament, difficult struggle; in a word, the color of this key is everything struggling with difficulty. 



A Major: 
This key includes declarations of innocent love, satisfaction with one's state of affairs; hope of seeing one's beloved again when parting; youthful cheerfulness and trust in God. 



A minor: 
Pious womanliness and tenderness of character. 



Bb Major: 
Cheerful love, clear conscience, hope aspiration for a better world. 



Bb minor: 
A quaint creature, often dressed in the garment of night. It is somewhat surly and very seldom takes on a pleasant countenance. Mocking God and the world; discontented with itself and with everything; preparation for suicide sounds in this key. 



B Major: 
Strongly coloured, announcing wild passions, composed from the most glaring coulors. Anger, rage, jealousy, fury, despair and every burden of the heart lies in its sphere. 



B Minor: 
This is as it were the key of patience, of calm awaiting ones's fate and of submission to divine dispensation. 



BS. Sure you could attribute certain emotions with certain keys but that is all dependent with you're personal experience with a key. There is no ridged set of emotions attributed to any one key signature. For example I could just as easily have a funeral lament in D minor as F minor. In fact one of the greatest and most well know funeral laments ever is requiem in D minor.

[dogmancar]

There's a great deal of difference if you're writing for classical instruments or voices, because there are hard limits on which notes you can use - so, for instance, if you write string music in E flat major and don't get the double basses to tune down, then you can't get the root note played as low as if you wrote in E major, or if you write for voices then it'll make a big difference whether the root note is at the very top of some of the singers range or just beyond it. Also, on some instruments, different keys feel different to play - the obvious case being C major on the piano versus something with a lot of black notes in.

So historically, different keys will have tended to lend themselves better to certain sorts of writing, and hence may have developed certain associations.

I don't know of any actual difference between them as you'd hear them played on a synth by a sequencer, though. It's worth bearing in mind that that extended thing about the characteristics of the keys was written in 1806, so it's not exactly the cutting edge of modern thinking on the matter.

Best point in here so far.

[RmoniK]

there are HUGE differences in the "feel" of each key.
i cant remember where i got this from originally but regardless here a list of characteristics:



C Major: 
Completely Pure. Its character is: innocence, simplicity, naïvety, children's talk. 



C Minor: 
Declaration of love and at the same time the lament of unhappy love. All languishing, longing, sighing of the love-sick soul lies in this key. 



Db Major: 
A leering key, degenerating into grief and rapture. It cannot laugh, but it can smile; it cannot howl, but it can at least grimace its crying.--Consequently only unusual characters and feelings can be brought out in this key. 



C# Minor: 
Penitential lamentation, intimate conversation with God, the friend and help-meet of life; sighs of disappointed friendship and love lie in its radius. 



D Major: 
The key of triumph, of Hallejuahs, of war-cries, of victory-rejoicing. Thus, the inviting symphonies, the marches, holiday songs and heaven-rejoicing choruses are set in this key. 



D Minor: 
Melancholy womanliness, the spleen and humours brood. 



Eb Major: 
The key of love, of devotion, of intimate conversation with God. 



D# Minor: 
Feelings of the anxiety of the soul's deepest distress, of brooding despair, of blackest depresssion, of the most gloomy condition of the soul. Every fear, every hesitation of the shuddering heart, breathes out of horrible

D# minor: If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key. 



E Major: 
Noisy shouts of joy, laughing pleasure and not yet complete, full delight lies in E Major. 



E minor: 
Naïve, womanly innocent declaration of love, lament without grumbling; sighs accompanied by few tears; this key speaks of the imminent hope of resolving in the pure happiness of C major. 



F Major: 
Complaisance & Calm. 



F Minor: 
Deep depression, funereal lament, groans of misery and longing for the grave. 



F# Major: 
Triumph over difficulty, free sigh of relief utered when hurdles are surmounted; echo of a soul which has fiercely struggled and finally conquered lies in all uses of this key. 



F# Minor: 
A gloomy key: it tugs at passion as a dog biting a dress. Resentment and discontent are its language. 



G Major: 
Everything rustic, idyllic and lyrical, every calm and satisfied passion, every tender gratitude for true friendship and faithful love,--in a word every gentle and peaceful emotion of the heart is correctly expressed by this key. 



G Minor: 
Discontent, uneasiness, worry about a failed scheme; bad-tempered gnashing of teeth; in a word: resentment and dislike. 



Ab Major: 
Key of the grave. Death, grave, putrefaction, judgment, eternity lie in its radius. 



Ab Minor: 
Grumbler, heart squeezed until it suffocates; wailing lament, difficult struggle; in a word, the color of this key is everything struggling with difficulty. 



A Major: 
This key includes declarations of innocent love, satisfaction with one's state of affairs; hope of seeing one's beloved again when parting; youthful cheerfulness and trust in God. 



A minor: 
Pious womanliness and tenderness of character. 



Bb Major: 
Cheerful love, clear conscience, hope aspiration for a better world. 



Bb minor: 
A quaint creature, often dressed in the garment of night. It is somewhat surly and very seldom takes on a pleasant countenance. Mocking God and the world; discontented with itself and with everything; preparation for suicide sounds in this key. 



B Major: 
Strongly coloured, announcing wild passions, composed from the most glaring coulors. Anger, rage, jealousy, fury, despair and every burden of the heart lies in its sphere. 



B Minor: 
This is as it were the key of patience, of calm awaiting ones's fate and of submission to divine dispensation. 



HUUUUUGE DIFFERENCES BRAH WATTAFAAK.
Do you think there are differences because you actually feel that way or because you read this stuff you just posted?

Sigh. Look, i asked myself this question too some time ago. Even asked it to my teachers at the music academy. They all answered it was complete bullshit. Yes, ofcourse a song will sound different if it has another root note (that's why it's another rootnote...) but it doesn't give a certain "feel" to your song. Just go with what sounds good with your MELODY and don't stay stuck on that ROOT NOTE. And ofcourse, if you play a cover of a song in a different root note than the original it will sound weird. But that's just because you're used to hearing the original.

By the way, i've some of these schemes too, from different authors, and they had completely other characteristics...

[Electric_Head]

Like I said previously, it`s all subjective.
You will define a key "feel" as something totally different to another person.
My dark is someone elses evil.
My happy is someone elses dark.

[drake89]

FWIW in eastern music the major and minor mode's emotional associations are often reversed.

[AllNightDayDream]

FWIW in eastern music the major and minor mode's emotional associations are often reversed.

Isn't that because they don't use western key structures?

[RmoniK]

they don't. They just use scales. No distinct harmony.

[-[2]DAY_-]

a modal piece has distinct harmonies... they're just all over one pedal-tone (single held note/drone)

certain tunes feel different when transposed, but tbh its a lot to do with the voicings and timbres that occur as a result... example: putting a capo on your guitar and singing a song in a different key... guitar sounds more jangly, voice is hitting different areas of its natural range

I'd venture to say in the context of electronica, No. There's no remarkable difference.