UK riots

[therapist]

Boris needs to step down and let that kid run tings. He's got a brain and a heart which is more than Boris...

Good on him.

Another thing I've found kind of shocking is Cameron and every other bod that gets asked for an opinion making all these ridiculous promises saying that everyone will be punished and these problems will be fixed, when they've clearly no fucking clue what's happening. It's all well and good saying rioters will be punished "to the full extent of the law", but you really going to put like 10,000 kids in prison for the 5 or 6 different crimes they've probably all committed? There's just no way that could work.

[doobyus]

It's all well and good saying rioters will be punished "to the full extent of the law", but you really going to put like 10,000 kids in prison for the 5 or 6 different crimes they've probably all committed? There's just no way that could work.

According to the Guardian 1335 have already been arrested but only 167 charged so far, but detainees are being held in police vans outside the courts due to lack of space to deal with them inside.

Theresa May did say there were 7-8000 places available in prison yesterday if they were needed...

[antipode]

Boris needs to step down and let that kid run tings. He's got a brain and a heart which is more than Boris...

Definately. That's inspiring. Talk about conviction.

[kay]

Not sure what field you're studying nor what country you're in (but I'd guess US since you used $ and "son"). PhD mate of mine went over to the states over five years ago to earn $90k straight off the bat. She's well above that now. Unlike Europe, the US actually pays technical PhDs a decent wage if they're good.

I have a PhD too. I don't earn craploads of money but I'm comfortable. I worked my arse off my entire life to get 2 scholarships. So I think some of your assertions are wrong.

i must have phrased my argument poorly.
investing in your own education and working hard absolutely pays off and gets you "ahead."

my point is that there is a huge gap between the kind of money that you can make as an honest public health practitioner and the kind of money that super rich people have. And that becoming super wealthy almost always involves breaking some sort of law to get there. and even if it doesn't: if you have $100 million in liquid assets...in my eyes you've got $90 million that doesn't belong to you.

on a related note: my sister works in tax law. she works for the IRS right now and essentially her job is to collect as much tax revenue from corporations as possible. before this she worked at a firm that represented investment banks and other large corporations to minimize amount of taxes those corporations would have to pay.
she made about 3 times as much money by helping banks like Lehman and Goldman-Sachs keep their money out of the hands of public services and the poor.

That makes more sense now, thanks for responding.

[Mr Hyde]

I know it could lead to trouble (especially with EDL types or if people go looking for trouble) but I think its quite heartening to see that 1000's of people went out to protect their local communities last night....shows that there is still pride and community spirit and that even if the Police did nothing people wouldn't put up with rioting for much longer.

[kay]

The second wave that starts up is gonna be far worse than this one. Those will be properly organised people with a serious grudge against politics/society/whoever.

[magma]

Boris needs to step down and let that kid run tings. He's got a brain and a heart which is more than Boris...

Good on him.

Another thing I've found kind of shocking is Cameron and every other bod that gets asked for an opinion making all these ridiculous promises saying that everyone will be punished and these problems will be fixed, when they've clearly no fucking clue what's happening. It's all well and good saying rioters will be punished "to the full extent of the law", but you really going to put like 10,000 kids in prison for the 5 or 6 different crimes they've probably all committed? There's just no way that could work.

Seeing as most people are being arrested at the scene, I guess most will be charged with one count of burglary or criminal damage... fist offence for a minor, I doubt they'll be getting too much, especially once the defence start making cases for extraordinary circumstances and kids being easily led by mob behaviour.

The people that will really be getting nailed are the employed adults amongst them... there really is no excuse, that's just utterly unacceptable behaviour.

The second wave that starts up is gonna be far worse than this one. Those will be properly organised people with a serious grudge against politics/society/whoever.

I wonder if there'll really be one... I'm desperately hoping the whole thing's running out of steam...

Edit: Though I did say that on Monday, too...

[clifford_-]

"Create a society that values material things above all else. Strip it of industry. Raise taxes for the poor and reduce them for the rich and for corporations. Prop up failed financial institutions with public money. Ask for more tax, while vastly reducing public services. Put adverts everywhere, regardless of people's ability to afford the things they advertise. Allow the cost of food and housing to eclipse people's ability to pay for them. Light blue touch paper." Andrew Maxwell

I think there will be a "next time" and it will be worse.

[Mr Hyde]

"Create a society that values material things above all else. Strip it of industry. Raise taxes for the poor and reduce them for the rich and for corporations. Prop up failed financial institutions with public money. Ask for more tax, while vastly reducing public services. Put adverts everywhere, regardless of people's ability to afford the things they advertise. Allow the cost of food and housing to eclipse people's ability to pay for them. Light blue touch paper." Andrew Maxwell

I think there will be a "next time" and it will be worse.

yeah, i guess as has been said plenty- most of these people doing this are just opportunistic selfish scumbags that are easily led by mob rule.

but you do have to question why it happens in society- can't just be coincidence that most of the areas affected are generally the poorer parts of big cities.

[magma]

"Create a society that values material things above all else. Strip it of industry. Raise taxes for the poor and reduce them for the rich and for corporations. Prop up failed financial institutions with public money. Ask for more tax, while vastly reducing public services. Put adverts everywhere, regardless of people's ability to afford the things they advertise. Allow the cost of food and housing to eclipse people's ability to pay for them. Light blue touch paper." Andrew Maxwell

Agree. I don't understand why it's ok for journalists to say this, but when a black kid or a rapper goes on Newsnight to try and say the same thing, they get accused of "excusing" or "supporting" it.

We need to fix whatever caused this. People don't do this for no reason... even if the rioters don't know the reasons themselves, the situation was created by the whole of society.

[garethom]

Raise taxes for the poor

I'm not trying to start something here, but how has this happened? Genuinely interested in case I'm missing something here, but wasn't the taxable income bracket pushed higher?

[clifford_-]

"Create a society that values material things above all else. Strip it of industry. Raise taxes for the poor and reduce them for the rich and for corporations. Prop up failed financial institutions with public money. Ask for more tax, while vastly reducing public services. Put adverts everywhere, regardless of people's ability to afford the things they advertise. Allow the cost of food and housing to eclipse people's ability to pay for them. Light blue touch paper." Andrew Maxwell

I think there will be a "next time" and it will be worse.

yeah, i guess as has been said plenty- most of these people doing this are just opportunistic selfish scumbags that are easily led by mob rule.

but you do have to question why it happens in society- can't just be coincidence that most of the areas affected are generally the poorer parts of big cities.

badman culture

[wub]

Rioter fresh out of court walks into lamp-post - http://yfrog.com/evd8qmz

[particle-jim]

"Create a society that values material things above all else. Strip it of industry. Raise taxes for the poor and reduce them for the rich and for corporations. Prop up failed financial institutions with public money. Ask for more tax, while vastly reducing public services. Put adverts everywhere, regardless of people's ability to afford the things they advertise. Allow the cost of food and housing to eclipse people's ability to pay for them. Light blue touch paper." Andrew Maxwell

Agree. I don't understand why it's ok for journalists to say this, but when a black kid or a rapper goes on Newsnight to try and say the same thing, they get accused of "excusing" or "supporting" it.

most people i've spoken to about the riots pretty much flatly refuse to believe that it could be anything other than mindless opportunistic violence and as soon as you start explaining how socio-economic factors are a huge part of it they act as if you're saying that you think looting is a good thing

basically, most people are fucking idiots who cant understand the difference between a reason and a justification

[pkay]

I challenge anybody to stay impartial in situations like this.

Challenge accepted, a NEWS REPORTERS JOB = to stay impartial, if you KNOW you can't be impartial you shouldn't be reporting the subject imho

Utter bollocks IMO. Objective journalism is one of the reasons world politics/economics are so fucked up right now. "I just covered the story, I gave a balanced view" is the argument of a pussy. Most journalists need to grow a fucking pair and actually put an opinion across as opposed to just regurgitating identikit press releases and facts. Anyone c.unt can report the facts. I want someone give me their own opinion on it. If I don't like it, I'll look elsewhere for an opinion that I do like. But I want the choice.

Thats called punditry not news.... and that's given birth to abortions like MSNBC and Fox News.

I'm of the opinion I'd like to be given facts that I cannot obtain first hand and I'll make up my own mind.

[noam]

"Create a society that values material things above all else. Strip it of industry. Raise taxes for the poor and reduce them for the rich and for corporations. Prop up failed financial institutions with public money. Ask for more tax, while vastly reducing public services. Put adverts everywhere, regardless of people's ability to afford the things they advertise. Allow the cost of food and housing to eclipse people's ability to pay for them. Light blue touch paper." Andrew Maxwell

Agree. I don't understand why it's ok for journalists to say this, but when a black kid or a rapper goes on Newsnight to try and say the same thing, they get accused of "excusing" or "supporting" it.

We need to fix whatever caused this. People don't do this for no reason... even if the rioters don't know the reasons themselves, the situation was created by the whole of society.

its just to do with credibility tho isn't it

there are certain reporters im sure, who would be accused of the same thing

its not strictly a racial thing - though you could argue that being a young black rapper, in the eyes of some would automatically reduce your credibility, and that that IS racism - but there are plenty of people who would say this and have the BBC posit the question that they are in fact excusing the events...

[wub]

I challenge anybody to stay impartial in situations like this.

Challenge accepted, a NEWS REPORTERS JOB = to stay impartial, if you KNOW you can't be impartial you shouldn't be reporting the subject imho

Utter bollocks IMO. Objective journalism is one of the reasons world politics/economics are so fucked up right now. "I just covered the story, I gave a balanced view" is the argument of a pussy. Most journalists need to grow a fucking pair and actually put an opinion across as opposed to just regurgitating identikit press releases and facts. Anyone c.unt can report the facts. I want someone give me their own opinion on it. If I don't like it, I'll look elsewhere for an opinion that I do like. But I want the choice.

Thats called punditry not news.... and that's given birth to abortions like MSNBC and Fox News.

I'm of the opinion I'd like to be given facts that I cannot obtain first hand and I'll make up my own mind.

Punditry is one aspect of journalism; that's not to say that every journalist is a pundit, nor every pundit a journalist.

Agreed re; MSNBC & Fox, but they are worse case examples. The same protocol has also given space to people like Jake Adelstein & Jon Ronson. Both are journalists, both could easily be considered pundits, but neither of them ever provides true objectivity in their writings.

[mIrReN]

I challenge anybody to stay impartial in situations like this.

Challenge accepted, a NEWS REPORTERS JOB = to stay impartial, if you KNOW you can't be impartial you shouldn't be reporting the subject imho

Utter bollocks IMO. Objective journalism is one of the reasons world politics/economics are so fucked up right now. "I just covered the story, I gave a balanced view" is the argument of a pussy. Most journalists need to grow a fucking pair and actually put an opinion across as opposed to just regurgitating identikit press releases and facts. Anyone c.unt can report the facts. I want someone give me their own opinion on it. If I don't like it, I'll look elsewhere for an opinion that I do like. But I want the choice.

lol

[dreamizm]

I challenge anybody to stay impartial in situations like this.

Challenge accepted, a NEWS REPORTERS JOB = to stay impartial, if you KNOW you can't be impartial you shouldn't be reporting the subject imho

Utter bollocks IMO. Objective journalism is one of the reasons world politics/economics are so fucked up right now. "I just covered the story, I gave a balanced view" is the argument of a pussy. Most journalists need to grow a fucking pair and actually put an opinion across as opposed to just regurgitating identikit press releases and facts. Anyone c.unt can report the facts. I want someone give me their own opinion on it. If I don't like it, I'll look elsewhere for an opinion that I do like. But I want the choice.

Thats called punditry not news.... and that's given birth to abortions like MSNBC and Fox News.

I'm of the opinion I'd like to be given facts that I cannot obtain first hand and I'll make up my own mind.

Punditry is one aspect of journalism; that's not to say that every journalist is a pundit, nor every pundit a journalist.

Agreed re; MSNBC & Fox, but they are worse case examples. The same protocol has also given space to people like Jake Adelstein & Jon Ronson. Both are journalists, both could easily be considered pundits, but neither of them ever provides true objectivity in their writings.

With all due respect, you are wrong in your understanding of what a 'journalist' means.

Newspapers and broadcasters are including a lot more 'opinion' and 'commentary' these days and the definition has been stretched but I don't see anyone going around telling doctors or lawyers about the role of their profession in society.

The fact that this thread is 50+ pages long proves that arriving/presenting the facts is not something anyone can do. News is structured in a way as to make it seem straightforward but their is a science behind it. Go study it for one/two/three years and come back to me if you disagree.

Peace.

[lloydnoise]

article by Kevin Sampson from Gurdian - CiF:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... mob-mayhem

he makes some great points here, really good piece