Is the moneyshot thread too inaccessible for new producers?

[paradigm_x]

I fully understand that the majority of questions are likely to be quite basic in nature; if you know what you're doing you don't tend to ask for help!

But seriously, people literally seem to want spoonfeeding and dont seem t be capable or willing to even try anything. Its like writing by crowd sourcing.

Im waiting for;

"ive got massive, what preset shoudl i use for mah bass?"

Were only one step away.

[synthlf]

i kinda agree on paradigm x comments, thou a edited version for more comfortable reading(txt file or smth) would be better for noobs imo....there are lots of unnecessary comment in there.

[paravrais]

there are lots of unnecessary comment in there.

[Anne Droid]

I think a condensed and more easier to read version would be a great idea. I dont get why ppl are hating on doing that, or having "noobs" on the board. We should be trying to get lots of traffic of all types. The more discussion and more people the better.

[benjam]

Condensed Yes - Simplified No

[wub]

"ive got massive, what preset shoudl i use for mah bass?"

Brutal Electro.



Everyone knows that

[wub]

Condensed Yes - Simplified No

Exactly. Again, I'm not talking about dumbing anything down, but as has been said above, for all it's gems the Moneyshot Thread is an unwieldy beast.

[paravrais]

There is a part of me that feels since I had to wade through all 12million pages of that thread to hunt out the gems why should these noobs get an easy life?! Trekking through that thread with nothing but a rucksack of provisions and some water purifying tablets is a right of passage imo :p

[paradigm_x]

"ive got massive, what preset shoudl i use for mah bass?"

Brutal Electro.

[FSTZ]

I actually made a condensed version for a friend who was having some mixdown issues

here it is if you care to reference it

Bob Macc on Gain Structuring

DC: Let's say the drums hit up to -3 dB, what should be a fair volume for the sub?

Macc: Sorry if it isn't really answering your question, but -3 is way too high.

Remember that 6dB is half. So if you have one element at -6, that is half your headroom gone. Two elements at -6dB each = all your headroom gone. Having the drums at -3 will leave you fighting against clipping and struggling to keep everything down and under control.

Rather, set your drums for *around* -8 / -10 (ie, a bit less than half). The bass - if we are talking a pure sine sub - would probably sit best a dB or two below that, any distorted/fullband bass sounds should be effectively treated as different entities and mixed appropriately (due to Fletcher Munson).

This leaves you with a few dB’s headroom, and everything else is just parsley. No more fighting anything, you *will* get repeatable and consistent levels in your mixes, and better mixes as a result.

Good fundamental gain structure from the beginning is the easiest way to get a good mix. You should, IMHO, always be looking to get any/all sounds as right as possible, as early as possible in the signal chain IMHO. Think of a top notch jazz band - they play at the right level, it gets recorded, no mixing/eq/compression, no editing, no fuckin nothing. And it sounds the absolute bollocks.

While that doesn't totally apply to dubstep etc, the principle is the same. If your 'band' plays the right thing at the right level with a good sound, your tune will mix itself. All these sidechains and multiband doodads and insane eq curves blah blah - unless used specifically as creative effects - are just sticking plasters for the fact the 'band' fucked up.


Benefits of gain structuring:

- You'll never have to move your master fader again.

- You'll never get clipping again (unless you're really doing something wrong).

- You'll mix more consistently as you won't be 'chasing your tail', pushing things up on the left and turning them down on the right (sound familiar anyone?).

- You'll get a sense for where tracks should sit peak-level-wise depending on what they are (drums ~ -8 to -10, bass a bit lower, pads maybe -18dB, shakers down below that etc).

- following from that you'll start getting the sound right at source, and find yourself moving the faders less = better fader resolution for finer level tweaking.

- Your tunes are more likely to be easily master-able (no clipping or shoehorning under 0dB happening)

- Your ME will thank you for it by making it sound fucking huge.

[Zkeeto]

how often do newbies take the time to learn nowadays?

If you dont take the time to learn then well....u wont learn. I agree the the moneyshot thread is quite advanced but if u take some time to read it and re read parts u dont understand and look them up then eventually things will start clicking in ur head. Trust me, its worth the effort. oh and if ur trying to learn specific things like what does this do, diff ways of setting up ur synths etc. then just get into yur daw and try to do it urself (after researchin it) the best learning tool is experimentation. if at fisrt u dont succeed try and try again

[paradigm_x]

how often do newbies take the time to learn nowadays?

If you dont take the time to learn then well....u wont learn. I agree the the moneyshot thread is quite advanced but if u take some time to read it and re read parts u dont understand and look them up then eventually things will start clicking in ur head. Trust me, its worth the effort. oh and if ur trying to learn specific things like what does this do, diff ways of setting up ur synths etc. then just get into yur daw and try to do it urself (after researchin it) the best learning tool is experimentation. if at fisrt u dont succeed try and try again

Thanks fuck for that. We're not doomed.

[Collyer]

when i first started i found it quite hard to understand, i get it now but i was put off for a while by the shear complexity of it. i think we could do with a diet version, giving the basics of gain structure

[ComfiStile]

IMO there's a lot of clutter to get through to get tips and techniques. If it was set out more clearly, bullet points and such, I think newbies would be more inclined to read it, and may even ask less mixing related questions.

Though, keep the original thread how it is. Make a new, more clearly titled, thread.

My opinion though.

[ChadDub]

That thread is just more of conversation about random mixing things rather than a guide like the "How to Produce Dubstep!" thread.
I think it'd be better to just make a thread with general mixing tips like gain structuring and stuff, and then link some threads that have to do with mixing, and then link some other websites that have good info like Tweakheadz or something.

[SunkLo]

captain FLtorrent

There is a part of me that feels since I had to wade through all 12million pages of that thread to hunt out the gems why should these noobs get an easy life?! Trekking through that thread with nothing but a rucksack of provisions and some water purifying tablets is a right of passage imo :p

Kind of agree with this haha. By the time you've read it all through you have a pretty solid grasp of the concepts. It's like one of the next level threads, if you go in there and everything's way over your head then it's time to head pack to pallet town and kill some more pidgys. Sort of a benchmark for your comprehension. That information won't even be useful to most noobs because they're still stuck in the "how do I make sounds" phase. Once you graduate from sound design and arranging, then you can learn the art of mixing.

At the same time, a condensed version certainly wouldn't hurt.

[blinx]

NO, NO, NO!!!!!!

I think its as accesible as any other thread, Start at the beggining read til the end. If you cannot commit to reading/learning the moneyshot thread than i dont think you have any business trying to start threads or ask questions period. There is no easy answer, learning to think like a proper Mixing engineer/producer was like taking giant steps in the right direction for me and by dumbing down the thread or condesning it or taking it out of that context i think would ruin the experience it holds. THa thread is magic damnit dont f with magic lol.

Instead you should require new members to finish reading the whole thread before they can post any other questions. Maybe even put in a little exam test. I bet we would have way less crappy questions and way more inteligent exchanges of technique and proper prodution again.

ang a big thanks to MACC for being a boss and spreading the knowledge in the first place.

[Airgonaut]

I don't think it's inaccessible. I read it when I first joined, and that was when I barely knew how to produce. I couldn't really USE the knowledge right away, but I certainly understood it. When I read it again recently, it completely changed how I went about structuring my mixes.

I don't think adding an "easier" thread would help much. There's enough info that's accessible in that thread for beginners, and rereadings will bring out even more information.

[ComfiStile]

There's an awful lot of 'we did it so newbs should have to aswell!' in this thread.

That's not really a very productive way of thinking. Will them having read the full thread affect you differently than if they had a condensed version? Not in the slightest. I'm not having a go, but that is a bit childish, don't you think?

I think that thread should be about learning how to mix effectively. Learning effectively shouldn't mean wading through 40+ pages of 1/3 useful posts. I know if there was a condensed version with a clutter free layout, much like the 'how to make dubstep' guide, I'd give it another read. How about posting each question on the first page, and then linking it to the answer within the thread? It's just too damn cluttered to get any real information out of without feeling like you are wasting all of your time.

The truth is, although that thread is gold, people are either going to go to another forum/website to get their info, or else post an annoying thread asking their question. Said thread will be locked with a link to the moneyshot, and then they will look elsewhere anyhow. People are lazy. That's all there is to it.

Now, please, don't flame. I am not ridiculing anyone or trying to be offensive. But just listen to what I am saying.

[deadly_habit]

when you get a book for research from the library do you expect the librarian to read it to you, highlight important passages and explain any words you don't explain from the dictionary?
i think that's how threads containing a wealth of info should be treated. you could always do what some users on doa have done with say their q&a's take direct questions and answers, put them in a pdf and leave out all the crap, then up it for public use, i mean it's not like there's a ton more that can really be added to the moneyshot thread at this point that hasn't already been covered in it

i think it's kind of a reflection of the direction this board has taken when the older regulars who used to enjoy posting here and answering questions don't, or rarely post here anymore (including myself)
it's not so much a to hell with noobs, it's more a to hell with laziness, or this entitlement attitude when the answers are already there for the taking with a bit of digging