WHO HERE THINKS WOMEN ARE EQUAL?

[noam]

Society is still set up incredibly badly for girls. Not women quite so much - those that make it out of their teenage years with their competitive and "constructive" urges still in tact are able to do very well, but there is a huuuuge social filter during the school years which allows boys free reign to get geeky/obsessive about anything they like (and thus move onto study/work/hobbies they're passionate about) whereas girls are blinkered to a lot of their possibilities by being told that the most important things to worry about are fashion, celebrity gossip and boys... they're more likely to end up settling for an unskilled job and a low sense of social worth because the jobs they're taught to lust after are few and far between.

girls statistically do a lot better than boys in high school and more girls will, on average, go to university and study in higher education than boys

i'd actually say that its the complete opposite way round

if there's anything holding girls back at that stage its their parents, not 'the system'

[wub]

I blame the Spice Girls.

[magma]

Society is still set up incredibly badly for girls. Not women quite so much - those that make it out of their teenage years with their competitive and "constructive" urges still in tact are able to do very well, but there is a huuuuge social filter during the school years which allows boys free reign to get geeky/obsessive about anything they like (and thus move onto study/work/hobbies they're passionate about) whereas girls are blinkered to a lot of their possibilities by being told that the most important things to worry about are fashion, celebrity gossip and boys... they're more likely to end up settling for an unskilled job and a low sense of social worth because the jobs they're taught to lust after are few and far between.

girls statistically do a lot better than boys in high school and more girls will, on average, go to university and study in higher education than boys

i'd actually say that its the complete opposite way round

if there's anything holding girls back at that stage its their parents, not 'the system'

Succeeding in compulsory formal education and following the track to University with everyone else doesn't mean a huge amount towards leading a fulfilling life... it doesn't get you into making art for art's sake, doesn't teach you how to become obsessive, does indulge the fantasy that drunk fancy-dress is the pinnacle of human interaction, does teach you that following the well-trodden path is the way to happiness and success.

All my housemates except me went to Uni. The girls are just as held back as those I know that didn't go. It's not about formal education, it's about society and how you relate to it. It's possible for a girl to sidestep all these things, obviously (which is how we get exceptionally motivated people like Bela emigrating to pursue dreams), but their die is far more cast than for any boy.

Also, parents are part of the "system". They're produced by society and you get no choice over which ones you're provided with. It's as important for us to sort out our attitudes to our own children as much as it is to sort out our attitudes to education and culture.

[magma]

I blame the Spice Girls.

They definitely didn't help matters by equating "GIRL POWER!" with dressing like strippers (for their enjoyment, not men's obviously), marrying rich/famous men, crash-dieting after childbirth, battling eating disorders, living insanely frivolous lives and allowing yourself to be defined by a single word related not to personality, but to heavily manicured appearance. Bunch of fucking stnuc.

Don't get me started on the cult of Marylin Monroe...

[Forum]

Could be worse

[slothrop]

Magma generally on point, here.

Re the original article, yeah, the comment from Scuba comes off a bit dickish. I think the writer's stuff about amazing gender-free pansexual rave utopia is kind of off the mark. I'm not sure that underground dance culture is any worse than any other area of popular culture for sticking some tits on something to make it sell, but that's no reason that people who should know better shouldn't try to do better, which I guess is part of what Ben was saying.

Also:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/women- ... does,1398/

[belalala]

aw, magma





i'd agree with what noam, slothrop and others have said about the idealistic view of the EDM community of the past, but there is something to be said for a lot of the discussion points being raised here when it comes to women's deep-rooted involvement in the community. all the jokes made about DSF being a sausage fest aside, there is more to the lack of females in the scene than horny boys on the internet -- and it extends beyond the 'aggressive' and heavy sound of dubstep that supposedly pushes girls away.

i'd say a big factor has been the move of the rave from warehouse parties and basements to corporate-level clubs, changing the whole vibe of nights out where the community is built. it not only detracts from the sense of DIY reality construction that is more malleable when you have a private space, but invites the more negative sides of nightlife with it, including horny-bordering-on-predatory hunts for girls to take home. any of the gender-neutral perspectives old EDM events might have held in the past would unsurprisingly be lost when you're sandwiching them into places generally run on money, looks and sociability -- the same values that play a part in perpetuating traditional gender roles.

LACE, autobot, all you other SNH ladies, where you at?

[noam]

there's no shortage of girls at Techno/House nights

maybe *shock horror* girls CAN be just as shallow as boys when it comes to participating in a scene...

but when girls are like that its because of society and when boys are like that its because naturally we're 'predatory' ??

[belalala]

fair play, more girls at house and techno nights... but the point remains, why are there so few acclaimed female djs and producers? maya jane coles aside.

fully agree, girls can be just as shallow as guys in the scene, in fact i'd say often MORE so ... goes back to what magma was chatting about social conventions among girls that are reinforced largely in secondary school.

didn't say anything about men naturally being predatory -- there are many factors at play, including the high level of drug usage in clubs, social conventions (men "pick up" women), and the fact that men generally aren't accustomed to women being more interested in the sound than they are (like i said, lack of deep-rooted female involvement). can't tell you how close it can come to ruining a night when you're JUST trying to have a skank and get approached by guys aggressively looking for some tail.

[O Tumma Tum Ladin]

the only purpose of feminist critical theory is to break down gender boundaries to the point where most men are gay enough to let these carol anne duffalikes fuck them with a strap on.

[noam]

the only purpose of feminist critical theory is to break down gender boundaries to the point where most men are gay enough to let these carol anne duffalikes fuck them with a strap on.

so we know where you stand then

[O Tumma Tum Ladin]

women's equality?




seriously though I think women would be a lot closer to equality if its main proponents didn't devote most of their time to finding an implicit female voice in medieval heroic literature.

[noam]

women's equality?




seriously though I think women would be a lot closer to equality if its main proponents didn't devote most of their time to finding an implicit female voice in medieval heroic literature.

men would also look less stupid in their eyes if they didn't keep re-writing medieval heroic literature

[O Tumma Tum Ladin]

well it has to be rewritten so we can pretend that the vikings were morally relativistic eco-warriors with representational democracy and lesbian rights.

[noam]

if a feminist can get that from Andy McNabb imagine what they could do with Mein Kampff

im converted

[magma]

fair play, more girls at house and techno nights... but the point remains, why are there so few acclaimed female djs and producers? maya jane coles aside.

Exactly this.

Girls being existant within any social scene is nothing new - there were plenty of girls at jazz and rockabilly clubs too, but not many of them were encouraged to do anything other than dress up nicely, watch, dance and enjoy or, if they were really "into it", fawn over the 'magically' talented men, which isn't too far from how a lot of scenes feel today. Men are socially-allowed to crowd the DJ booth and nerd about over white labels and needles like musical trainspotters - taking everything they learn back to their bedroom to try out, but girls are expected to be no more engaged than taking photos or offering one-night-stands in return for free coke.... that probably holds more truth for the more mainstream house and techno nights my housemate runs at places like Scala (and Turnmills before it closed) than 'our' scene, but to imply that the existence of girls in a crowd is equivalent to them appearing on stage seems to miss the point.... if anything, it puts the disconnect into sharp relief.

but when girls are like that its because of society and when boys are like that its because naturally we're 'predatory' ??

The predatory thing is difficult to grasp as a bloke because we almost never experience it in reverse... but I've lost count of the amount of times I've had to pretend to be a boyfriend or give someone a 'look' for overstepping the mark with a female friend... usually, it's the sneaky ass-grab or trailing hand whilst walking through a crowd. Sadly, this seems to be something a lot of girls just accept as a fact of life... my ex had experienced it going far too far in the past and used to let it ruin nights for her; last time I saw someone lay hands on her, they ended up with an imprint of her chunkiest ring above their eyebrow and WE got kicked out.

Incidentally, men act like that because of the society they live in... men aren't built in a factory, they have to grow from boys.

[noam]

i agree to some extent

no one has ever stopped girls/women performing, if you're going to talk about Jazz in the 20's its a negligible example because its such an outdated one, PLUS some of the most famous jazz singers of all time have been women, and the 20's was the START of women's social liberation, drawing an analogy based on the gender roles of men and women then inevitably draws a response that those roles were in the process of being remolded

you dont experience mens predatory exploits in reverse cos they dont exist, but women have certain social behaviours which are just as malicious, to both girls and boys, maybe all your girl friends are enlightened and never exhibit the slightest bit of hostility towards othre girls in raves, or never judge boys at nights by their trainers/looks... it might be programmed but its programmed by PEOPLE, not some elusive masculine network of female suppression

i do agree though, that if you look at influences, that girls are seemingly limited from a young age, but only in as much as boys aren't encouraged to play with barbies or make clothes

there is a case for the fact that when men want to do those things, they are seemingly more able to than if women want to be mechanics, but men are still judged just as brazenly by their peer groups - both men and women - when they begin to exhibit classically [programmed] feminine qualities

im just saying its not all one-way, and im not denying the obvious social imbalances

[O Tumma Tum Ladin]

since when is judging someone by their looks and trainers a bad thing?

[wub]

Electronic music generally means lots of time spent alone, shut away indoors, messing around with machines. This is just something that suits boys more than girls.

[noam]

i never gave it a value but it has implicit positive and negative connotations about someones character if in fact they do act like that... but in the context of what i was saying i'd equate it to objectification which is what men are often accused of, especially in this instance