The Great Vinyl vs. CDJ vs. Software Controller Debate

[B-Frank]

Erm yeah, because brostep would never have happened without controllers. Just like clownstep didn't happen when everyone played vinyl. Oh no wait it did.

let's not all forget the point of DJing in the first place, and that is to make people dance. when it comes down to it, if you're doing that, who gives a fuck how it's being done

If people want a guy pressing buttons on a laptop they'd just ask for cheaper tickets and forget booking acts and stick a CD on.

Yes or no question - do you genuinely think that a DJ who mixes using automatic beatmatching on a laptop is no different from putting a CD on?

Of course it is different. I was exaggerating my argument but surely you must see where I am coming from. Dubstep has a big following of DJ's and people who genuinely appreciate DJ'ing as you have seen in this thread in honesty who like to see a DJ turn up and actually get hands on. People go to see Andy C because of not just his tune selection his absolute sublime skill. Same way people like Youngsta for his skill just as much as his tune selection. If either one of those DJ's jumped onto laptops and started auto-beatmatching their followings would dwindle seriously.

As someone who is a DJ and has had an interest in mixing for a long time I want to preserve the art. CDJ's were a compromise from Vinyl as they combine the best of analogue and digital worlds but laptop DJ'ing is a step too far and takes away from the general skill of it. I have mates who can mix on virtual DJ by auto syncing but if I let them have a spin on my decks it sounds like a train wreck.


Also may I add... I am not completely against "bro-step", that isn't why I think laptop DJ'ing is detrimental. Dubstep used to be a scene that idolised DJ's and their skills, that was probably out of all scenes was the biggest backer of vinyl and it seems like the skill is being taken out to an extent and it's getting to the point any new producer can make a tune, practice mixing for an hour and go out and DJ at a club.

[B-Frank]

Does anyone ever think how funny this debate must look like to 'proper' musicians? Like wow, non-musicians who get paid to play other people's records arguing about what's an adequately skillful way to play other people's records and what's 'cheating'.

In fairness, I consider myself a proper musician because I have been a long time player of the guitar. I think mixing is an art form the same way guitar is.

[mikeyp]

okay but does anyone really pay to go see someone who is just pressing buttons on a laptop who is strictly just a dj and not a producer?

I understand paying to see a producer who can't really dj all that well (skrillex for example, which i'm guilty of) just because it's the only way to hear all his music in a club setting

but my question, does anyone? I really don't even know of any big time djs who don't produce and all the big local djs near me who don't produce are old school so I have no idea what it's like anywhere else

[slothrop]

Of course it is different. I was exaggerating my argument but surely you must see where I am coming from. Dubstep has a big following of DJ's and people who genuinely appreciate DJ'ing as you have seen in this thread in honesty who like to see a DJ turn up and actually get hands on. People go to see Andy C because of not just his tune selection his absolute sublime skill. Same way people like Youngsta for his skill just as much as his tune selection. If either one of those DJ's jumped onto laptops and started auto-beatmatching their followings would dwindle seriously.

I dunno, maybe it's a bit like the turntablist guys when they go off into seriously silly stuff or fretwanking guitarists where it's kind of technically impressive to see it done even if it doesn't add anything really musical. But traditionally (ie pre laptop) I reckon the main reason people go to see a DJ who has amazing technical skills used to be because their mixes sound better than anyone else's. I'd be going for what the skill achieves not to see the skill performed for its own sake. And if you can get the tight, interesting mixing without having to manually pitch the tunes then why not?

These days if I hear tight mixing, I don't go over to check whether the DJ is using a laptop or not... I judge them on whether or not I'm enjoying the set. Is this really crazy?

[Redderious]

Many people use Serato Scratch for CDJs, is that considered computer DJing? Now the crowd won't be able to know if your using auto sync, its really just a matter if the person mixing can deal with himself for using it. Sure it takes away some skill in mixing but imo it takes away the fun of it too. Just messing with an eq/fx seems somewhat dull to me. At least 40% of what the DJ is needs to do while mixing is beatmatching his tracks together.

[B-Frank]

okay but does anyone really pay to go see someone who is just pressing buttons on a laptop who is strictly just a dj and not a producer?

I understand paying to see a producer who can't really dj all that well (skrillex for example, which i'm guilty of) just because it's the only way to hear all his music in a club setting

but my question, does anyone? I really don't even know of any big time djs who don't produce and all the big local djs near me who don't produce are old school so I have no idea what it's like anywhere else

In simple, yes people do go to see people DJ in London to the clubs I go to... People do have an idea what DJ's are doing. For example at fabric they have the DJ up at the front where you can see exactly what he is doing (well that is room 1 and 3). Even my non DJ mates all have an idea of what they are doing. In fairness, I don't have any friends who would pay to see Skrillex anyway as he has a pretty bad rep in England, bit of a love hate thing with him in England.

Of course it is different. I was exaggerating my argument but surely you must see where I am coming from. Dubstep has a big following of DJ's and people who genuinely appreciate DJ'ing as you have seen in this thread in honesty who like to see a DJ turn up and actually get hands on. People go to see Andy C because of not just his tune selection his absolute sublime skill. Same way people like Youngsta for his skill just as much as his tune selection. If either one of those DJ's jumped onto laptops and started auto-beatmatching their followings would dwindle seriously.

I dunno, maybe it's a bit like the turntablist guys when they go off into seriously silly stuff or fretwanking guitarists where it's kind of technically impressive to see it done even if it doesn't add anything really musical. But traditionally (ie pre laptop) I reckon the main reason people go to see a DJ who has amazing technical skills used to be because their mixes sound better than anyone else's. I'd be going for what the skill achieves not to see the skill performed for its own sake. And if you can get the tight, interesting mixing without having to manually pitch the tunes then why not?

These days if I hear tight mixing, I don't go over to check whether the DJ is using a laptop or not... I judge them on whether or not I'm enjoying the set. Is this really crazy?

Thats the thing though, I don't rate the shredding guitarists as it just sounds like horrendous noise to me. I like something a little bit more rhythmic. When it comes to DJ's though, a lot of people genuinely do care about the mixing. People may not run to see it but they have a damn site more respect if they are doing it on decks. I know this from personal experience and this isn't a dig at you as judging by the length of time you've been a member you are old enough but a lot of people on this forum don't go to actual raves because of age and some just generally don't go.

I challenge you to go to a proper dubstep night (of which I'm sure you do already) and ask people if they care if they mix on Laptop or Decks I'd wager you a fair amount of money they would.

[MoonUnit]

I'll sum it up:

Vinyl: Mine and many others favoruites but totally impractical nowadays.

Controllers: It isn't mixing, either get some decks or don't call yourself a DJ.

CDJ's: Todays realistic option.



Can't help but think that is as far as this can go?

I don't get it, one can do more with a controller than with vinyl and people are saying don't call yourself a DJ? That's ass backwards. I'm not gonna drop over a $1000 bucks for a top of the line turntable when for $800 I can get a controller that supports 4 decks, has an integrated sound card and mixer as well as FX and and sampling support.

Waaaaaah, beat gridding is cheating, waaaaaah. It doesn't feel like my first, waaaahh. Really? Traktor is easily usable with a controller without using the sync function, but why wouldn't you use it to make your mix sound perfect?. All ya purists can keep your rotary phones, I've gone touch-tone wireless.

To each their own, but I don't understand where the stigma against controllers comes from. It's the future and it brings the technical aspects of DJing to a new level. You still absorb the same values whilst DJing with a controller as with vinyl, there's just a million more ways to go about getting the same end result. Flexibility and innovation are winners in my book.

You can go retard-level beatmash/sample-crazy with a controller and make it sound horrendous, or you can be a suave motherlicka and make it sound pimp daddy. Same goes for turntables, you can make it sound like crap, or great. The thing about controllers is, there is way more power over the music, which makes it instinctively harder to do more with the music and have it sound good. Vinyl is about playing out a tune and controllerism is about creating a unique experience and everything in between.

"I challenge you to go to a proper dubstep night (of which I'm sure you do already) and ask people if they care if they mix on Laptop or Decks I'd wager you a fair amount of money they would."

^ This I know to be the truth, but I have to ask, why? Sure, it's harder to beat match by ear, but is that it? So it becomes an exclusivity contest?

By the way, great thread. I love hearing other people's opinions on this subject as people have been feuding about this long-time

[Huts]

To each their own, but I don't understand where the stigma against controllers comes from. It's the future and it brings the technical aspects of DJing to a new level. You still absorb the same values whilst DJing with a controller as with vinyl, there's just a million more ways to go about getting the same end result. Flexibility and innovation are winners in my book.

You can go retard-level beatmash/sample-crazy with a controller and make it sound horrendous, or you can be a suave motherlicka and make it sound pimp daddy. Same goes for turntables, you can make it sound like crap, or great. The thing about controllers is, there is way more power over the music, which makes it instinctively harder to do more with the music and have it sound good. Vinyl is about playing out a tune and controllerism is about creating a unique experience and everything in between.

again what exactly are you doing with a controller that's so mindblowing. everyone jumps on that same reply "you can be more creative with a controller" but no one ever says what they are doing lol. is it mashing effects? DJM 800, EFX1000, korg kaoss pad can all do those with CDJs and TTs. is it setting loops and queue points? CDJs can do that, as well as beat juggling with TTs. I'm really struggling to see where this massive amount of innovation and creativity is coming from with a controller, someone help me out here.

[Redderious]

To each their own, but I don't understand where the stigma against controllers comes from. It's the future and it brings the technical aspects of DJing to a new level. You still absorb the same values whilst DJing with a controller as with vinyl, there's just a million more ways to go about getting the same end result. Flexibility and innovation are winners in my book.

You can go retard-level beatmash/sample-crazy with a controller and make it sound horrendous, or you can be a suave motherlicka and make it sound pimp daddy. Same goes for turntables, you can make it sound like crap, or great. The thing about controllers is, there is way more power over the music, which makes it instinctively harder to do more with the music and have it sound good. Vinyl is about playing out a tune and controllerism is about creating a unique experience and everything in between.

again what exactly are you doing with a controller that's so mindblowing. everyone jumps on that same reply "you can be more creative with a controller" but no one ever says what they are doing lol. is it mashing effects? DJM 800, EFX1000, korg kaoss pad can all do those with CDJs and TTs. is it setting loops and queue points? CDJs can do that, as well as beat juggling with TTs. I'm really struggling to see where this massive amount of innovation and creativity is coming from with a controller, someone help me out here.

There really isn't MORE possiblilities, some features *might be easier to use. But overall it just comes down to price and easy access to your music library.

[mikeyp]

there really are. not with a conventional controller with decks but something like ableton and an mpc40, having multiple tracks and loops and being able to cut and blend more elements than two (or even four) decks, especially if it's your own tracks and you're using the stems

[Redderious]

there really are. not with a conventional controller with decks but something like ableton and an mpc40, having multiple tracks and loops and being able to cut and blend more elements than two (or even four) decks, especially if it's your own tracks and you're using the stems

That's live performing which is a lot different from DJing. i'm not telling you that this thread was exactly designated for DJ mixing, but that's what i was trying to get at. Software controllers that work with programs like serato and traktor...

[mikeyp]

there really are. not with a conventional controller with decks but something like ableton and an mpc40, having multiple tracks and loops and being able to cut and blend more elements than two (or even four) decks, especially if it's your own tracks and you're using the stems

That's live performing which is a lot different from DJing. i'm not telling you that this thread was exactly designated for DJ mixing, but that's what i was trying to get at. Software controllers that work with programs like serato and traktor...

gotcha. well yeah in that case there really isn't anything too crazy

[jrisreal]

To the people who are under the opinion that computer DJing isn't DJing:

Suppose that a computer DJ never looked at the screen but to select/load tracks. Suppose he treated his setup as if it were vinyl or CDJ in the sense that he didn't use cheater tools that make it easy. Would it still not be considered DJing?

[B-Frank]

To each their own, but I don't understand where the stigma against controllers comes from. It's the future and it brings the technical aspects of DJing to a new level. You still absorb the same values whilst DJing with a controller as with vinyl, there's just a million more ways to go about getting the same end result. Flexibility and innovation are winners in my book.

You can go retard-level beatmash/sample-crazy with a controller and make it sound horrendous, or you can be a suave motherlicka and make it sound pimp daddy. Same goes for turntables, you can make it sound like crap, or great. The thing about controllers is, there is way more power over the music, which makes it instinctively harder to do more with the music and have it sound good. Vinyl is about playing out a tune and controllerism is about creating a unique experience and everything in between.

again what exactly are you doing with a controller that's so mindblowing. everyone jumps on that same reply "you can be more creative with a controller" but no one ever says what they are doing lol. is it mashing effects? DJM 800, EFX1000, korg kaoss pad can all do those with CDJs and TTs. is it setting loops and queue points? CDJs can do that, as well as beat juggling with TTs. I'm really struggling to see where this massive amount of innovation and creativity is coming from with a controller, someone help me out here.

there really are. not with a conventional controller with decks but something like ableton and an mpc40, having multiple tracks and loops and being able to cut and blend more elements than two (or even four) decks, especially if it's your own tracks and you're using the stems

That's live performing which is a lot different from DJing. i'm not telling you that this thread was exactly designated for DJ mixing, but that's what i was trying to get at. Software controllers that work with programs like serato and traktor...

Both thing's I agree with that have been said so far.

I'll be honest, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Maybe its my generation? Maybe its the fact I don't really listen to skrillex music much which the controller market seems to sit well with. I just talk from a DJ perspective and someone who has spent a lot of time on decks. It is something everything DJ should do. Think half of it is the fact I come from a bit of a DNB background and beatmatching that is a lot trickier than dubstep and does actually take a fair bit more skill. I just don't like the fact that give me a pair of decks I can make my friends look shit yet I have one who knows barely anything about mixing, cannot mix on turntrables/CDJ's yet he bought a controller and he has been banging out auto-synced mixes that give people the illusion that he is half competent at mixing.

[mks]

This argument is almost as old as dubstep.

If you're some luddite that doesn't believe in technology, well you are going to get left behind.

I am a DJ, and I can play ALL mediums and respect them for what they are.

The most important criteria is your selection and how you can rock a crowd. By using whatever skills and techniques in your arsenal.

[B-Frank]

I do agree with technology just don't agree with losing the skill from it.

[BoyaBoyaBoya]

Wouldn't begrudge anyone for using laptops, auto syncing etc. but the majority of the djs I respect either do vinyl only sets or have a mix of serato/vinyl.

It gives them more musical integrity as there not just bashing two computer synced tunes together and on proper club speakers vinyl has a fuller, less harsh sound. People like Ben Ufo have spent years perfecting their technique and now anybody with a ableton and a mixer/controller can come along and become successful. Recent developments in djing technology have just made people lazy, with ableton's complex pro function perfectly beatmatching most bpm combinations. Playing out records that u know well and have a real connection with should be an essential part of djing, I find it hard to have this sort of relationship with a file on my computer.

[mks]

I hear what you are saying.

People like ... have spent years perfecting their technique and now anybody with a ableton and a mixer/controller can come along and become successful.

It's not really that easy or simple...

Recent developments in djing technology have just made people lazy, with ableton's complex pro function perfectly beatmatching most bpm combinations.

Once again, it's not really that simple. You have to manually warp all of your tunes if you want to be sure that the warping is correct. Try warping some funk or disco and get back to me.

Playing out records that u know well and have a real connection with should be an essential part of djing, I find it hard to have this sort of relationship with a file on my computer.

You should know your music no matter what format or medium you are playing in. This should go without saying. Probably the most essential part of DJ'ing.

[hudson]

This thread is full of so much elitism. Saying people who dj on controllers, even if they use them exactly like cdjs or vinyl, aren't djs is like saying you're not a writer if you use microsoft word instead of a sheet of papyrus and a feather. Art forms evolve, strictly vinyl setups are big, expensive, limited, and all around impractical, especially for newbies. Laptop set-ups, if used well, are in no way easier than vinyl, if that's what you're so upset about, extremely portable, way cheaper in the long run and just allow for much more creativity and expression. It sounds like the people who are so afraid of digital setups are also the people who sit in the back of clubs scoffing at people who just want to dance and have fun. Djing is about sharing good music, not about how fast you can beatmatch a tune or whatever, all this vinyl elitist crap is totally missing the point.

But I guess this shit goes on in every layer of musicianship. The funny thing is, djs are right at the bottom of the pyramid, yet they always seem to have the biggest heads.
"Digital dJing takes no talent." - Vinyl DJ
"DJing takes no talent" - Producer
"Electronic music takes no talent" - Guitarist
etc. etc.

[blinx]

djing with HAM filled alpacas > then all other mediums of djing....