On the possibility of objective aesthetic judgments

[intoccabile]

For a good number of people on this forum, the very notion of an objective aesthetic judgment regarding Dubstep ( and music in general ) does not make sense ( and therefore isn't a notion at all, some would say ). There are no such things as objective truths about Dubstep ( and music in general ), for aesthetic judgments are rooted in subjectivity. Relativism / methodological solipsism seems to be the only door left open for us. If everything is relative, then my appreciation of this specific track ( whatever perspective I choose to adopt ) will be as good as yours or his. This view makes aesthetic discussion extremely difficult ( and to tell the truth, why bother ? ) and whenever a track or artist are criticized, sometimes for good or bad reasons, the consensus seems to be that " de gustibus non est disputandum " : you have the right to express your opinion, but this opinion of yours has no universal validity, for it is a pure product of your ego.

I would like to challenge this view.

You probably all know Adorno's views on aesthetic relativism but I will quote him anyway.

The following passage was taken from his Negative Dialectics :

" True art can only survive if we destroy relativism. Because of it’s nihilistic, solipsist nature, relativism can never be refuted, since it would require the relativist to admit the value of what lies beyond his Ego. The tired counter that “relativism is relative” and refutes itself is ridiculous and unconvincing. The only cure is to show that relativists adopt that particular point of view simply because they are the product of an individualistic society (which is an objective entity) that promotes such views. Relativists think they are unique and clever, but are just puppets of a capitalist world that wants them to think so. Relativism is not a true philosophical point of view, but a mere social stereotype. "

My question for you all is this ; do you believe that a thing such as an objective aesthetic judgment is possible ? And why ? Do you believe that it is possible to state essential truths about Dubstep, and music in general, truths which possess universal validity ?

My belief is that aesthetic judgments are partly subjective, and not entirely subjective, like a lot of people seem to believe.

I have been thinking long and hard about this and I would like to hear your thoughts.

[death_cafe]

"There are no reference points" - Trungpa

[coherant]

This post reminded me of my hippie philosophy prof in college...damn gen eds

[ozols man]

ok im not very good with the big words, but i think its interesting how lots of people like certain parts of a track... i wont mention any names or anything but when i listen to other people tracks its interesting how they immitate parts of a track by a big producer which i love aswell (only i'll personally try do something different)...

[the wiggle baron]

As far as im concerned the definiton of an aesthetic judgement is one that is wholly subjective! As soon as objectivity comes into it, it is no longer an aesthetic judgement.

I swear all philosophy ever boils down to is just the careful defining of words! I did A-level philosophy (more of a brief introduction than anything meaningful) and at the start was fascinated by the constant prying at pre-conceptions, but by the end of my second year, it seemed everything boiled down to definitions. I probably missed something though. A big something!

[mayorquimby]

For a good number of people on this forum, the very notion of an objective aesthetic judgment regarding Dubstep ( and music in general ) does not make sense ( and therefore isn't a notion at all, some would say ). There are no such things as objective truths about Dubstep ( and music in general ), for aesthetic judgments are rooted in subjectivity. Relativism / methodological solipsism seems to be the only door left open for us. If everything is relative, then my appreciation of this specific track ( whatever perspective I choose to adopt ) will be as good as yours or his. This view makes aesthetic discussion extremely difficult ( and to tell the truth, why bother ? ) and whenever a track or artist are criticized, sometimes for good or bad reasons, the consensus seems to be that " de gustibus non est disputandum " : you have the right to express your opinion, but this opinion of yours has no universal validity, for it is a pure product of your ego.

I would like to challenge this view.

You probably all know Adorno's views on aesthetic relativism but I will quote him anyway.

The following passage was taken from his Negative Dialectics :

" True art can only survive if we destroy relativism. Because of it’s nihilistic, solipsist nature, relativism can never be refuted, since it would require the relativist to admit the value of what lies beyond his Ego. The tired counter that “relativism is relative” and refutes itself is ridiculous and unconvincing. The only cure is to show that relativists adopt that particular point of view simply because they are the product of an individualistic society (which is an objective entity) that promotes such views. Relativists think they are unique and clever, but are just puppets of a capitalist world that wants them to think so. Relativism is not a true philosophical point of view, but a mere social stereotype. "

My question for you all is this ; do you believe that a thing such as an objective aesthetic judgment is possible ? And why ? Do you believe that it is possible to state essential truths about Dubstep, and music in general, truths which possess universal validity ?

My belief is that aesthetic judgments are partly subjective, and not entirely subjective, like a lot of people seem to believe.

I have been thinking long and hard about this and I would like to hear your thoughts.

wobblez

[human?]

the only objective reality i see is that there is no such thing as objective reality.

i mean, we can pretend, and it can be usefull, but yeah, its not true. (imo )


death to is.

[Tombones]

My belief is that aesthetic judgments are partly subjective, and not entirely subjective, like a lot of people seem to believe.

instinctively im inclined to agree. that we can have any sort of consensus over the merit of a particular track seems to suggest that our aesthetic judgement is not entirely subjective. I think there are degrees of objectivity and subjectivity and way too many factors to enable any kind of clean division between the two. it seems to me that many people will just like what their friends like - peer pressure/herd mentality i suppose. fashion is the ultimate example of this. how many people have worn somethin fuckin hideous and only realise so years later after havin come across an old photo of themselves. Yep a large part of the criteria we apply consciously or subconsciously is relative to time and place, to a particular cultural context.

its not very satisfying to consider that your opinions about everything are purely subjective, i.e. that you might be wrong about everything. I think actually that scares the shit out of a lot of people. perhaps that’s why many of us buy into a certain image or particular trend, so we don’t have to make any choices. we can just be told what’s good or bad and feel that we belong to somethin. sums up much of mainstream culture for me, even so called subculture. you have to wonder when you have someone who is only into one thing, be it dubstep, drum & bass etc... what they would be listenin to if that particular style didnt exist? sayin that I only started buying vinyl again when i discovered dubstep. i like to think that objectively dubstep has something that other scenes don’t have or used to have but lost - originality, energy, creativity, some artistic integrity - but that’s just my opinion.

[flippo]

the other day, me and my mate couldn't come to any sort of agreement as to whether a big boat was orange or pink. I was 100% certain it was pink, he was 100% certain it was orange. Neither of us are colourblind as such.

Why does pink get to be it's own group of colours and not just light reds? am I missing something?

[overdose]

Yeah, the bottom line about opinions and truths in dubstep is there is no such thing. Opinions and truth, in general, about anything, also do not exist because they are abstract concepts. However, I suppose then, it logically follows that abstract concepts are abstract, as well. Ah, the cirlcle of philosophy.

[thomas]

You might be talking sence, but you do manage to be really odd and "show off" about how you do it

You probably all know Adorno's views on aesthetic relativism but I will quote him anyway

Errrr, yes.

[ufo over easy]

You probably all know Adorno's views on aesthetic relativism but I will quote him anyway.

Are you for real?



Seriously, go read some journals or something. Dubstepforum will have nothing more to offer than Jstor.

[dj slums]

You probably all know Adorno's views on aesthetic relativism but I will quote him anyway.

Are you for real?

was just thinkin that myself.

subjectivism, relativsim, communism, anarchism, whatever ism, they all boil down to hipocrosy.

its all about the person and how they view it. and unless you can jump into somones head and look through their eyes, actually being them for a short while, how could you ever come to a valid decision?

[dj slums]

the other day, me and my mate couldn't come to any sort of agreement as to whether a big boat was orange or pink. I was 100% certain it was pink, he was 100% certain it was orange. Neither of us are colourblind as such.

Why does pink get to be it's own group of colours and not just light reds? am I missing something?

i think pink falls into the pastel category of colours.

[ufo over easy]

subjectivism, relativsim, communism, anarchism, whatever ism, they all boil down to hipocrosy.

[*decibella~~]

the other day, me and my mate couldn't come to any sort of agreement as to whether a big boat was orange or pink. I was 100% certain it was pink, he was 100% certain it was orange. Neither of us are colourblind as such.

Why does pink get to be it's own group of colours and not just light reds? am I missing something?

i think pink falls into the pastel category of colours.

hmmm, interesting, well isnt grey jus light black? and lime just light green? and violet jus light purple? oooooh you've started me on something now......

errrm, so yea the actual post.

my view (i will use a 'tune' to illustrate my point)

say a tune is produced diabolically, rubbish sounds, out of key, not mixed down properly etc then i would say universally, people (obv apart from the unfortunate soul who made it!) can and will come to the same conclusion and share the same and justified view... that it is a rubbish track.

However if a track is produced to a high standard, mixdown right, everything in key, then it would purly be down to personal taste weather an individual likes it or not.

same with DJ'ing, if someone is actually shit, and clangs out then universally, people will conclude that they are rubbish, but if the DJ mixes very well then it would boil down to personal taste again (that DJs tune secection etc)

so what im saying is that, depending of the quality of out put technically/musically (wotever), will be dependant of weather it can be judged with personal taste, or with a universal and just critical view of quality.....

[flippo]

the other day, me and my mate couldn't come to any sort of agreement as to whether a big boat was orange or pink. I was 100% certain it was pink, he was 100% certain it was orange. Neither of us are colourblind as such.

Why does pink get to be it's own group of colours and not just light reds? am I missing something?

i think pink falls into the pastel category of colours.

hmmm, interesting, well isnt grey jus light black? and lime just light green? and violet jus light purple? oooooh you've started me on something now......

well my point is... lime is generaly considered a type of green, violet is considered a type of purple..... but pink is never considered a type of red.

[dj slums]

the other day, me and my mate couldn't come to any sort of agreement as to whether a big boat was orange or pink. I was 100% certain it was pink, he was 100% certain it was orange. Neither of us are colourblind as such.

Why does pink get to be it's own group of colours and not just light reds? am I missing something?

i think pink falls into the pastel category of colours.

hmmm, interesting, well isnt grey jus light black? and lime just light green? and violet jus light purple? oooooh you've started me on something now......

errrm, so yea the actual post.

my view (i will use a 'tune' to illustrate my point)

say a tune is produced diabolically, rubbish sounds, out of key, not mixed down properly etc then i would say universally, people (obv apart from the unfortunate soul who made it!) can and will come to the same conclusion and share the same and justified view... that it is a rubbish track.

However if a track is produced to a high standard, mixdown right, everything in key, then it would purly be down to personal taste weather an individual likes it or not.

same with DJ'ing, if someone is actually shit, and clangs out then universally, people will conclude that they are rubbish, but if the DJ mixes very well then it would boil down to personal taste again (that DJs tune secection etc)

so what im saying is that, depending of the quality of out put technically/musically (wotever), will be dependant of weather it can be judged with personal taste, or with a universal and just critical view of quality.....

i spent ages typing a reply to this, and not only this post but this whole thread, but it kept reading like utter bollocks. even i dont know what im on about so i dont see how anyone else would.

felt i had to post somthing cos i spent so much time fucking typing. what a waste.

[*decibella~~]

the other day, me and my mate couldn't come to any sort of agreement as to whether a big boat was orange or pink. I was 100% certain it was pink, he was 100% certain it was orange. Neither of us are colourblind as such.

Why does pink get to be it's own group of colours and not just light reds? am I missing something?

i think pink falls into the pastel category of colours.

hmmm, interesting, well isnt grey jus light black? and lime just light green? and violet jus light purple? oooooh you've started me on something now......

errrm, so yea the actual post.

my view (i will use a 'tune' to illustrate my point)

say a tune is produced diabolically, rubbish sounds, out of key, not mixed down properly etc then i would say universally, people (obv apart from the unfortunate soul who made it!) can and will come to the same conclusion and share the same and justified view... that it is a rubbish track.

However if a track is produced to a high standard, mixdown right, everything in key, then it would purly be down to personal taste weather an individual likes it or not.

same with DJ'ing, if someone is actually shit, and clangs out then universally, people will conclude that they are rubbish, but if the DJ mixes very well then it would boil down to personal taste again (that DJs tune secection etc)

so what im saying is that, depending of the quality of out put technically/musically (wotever), will be dependant of weather it can be judged with personal taste, or with a universal and just critical view of quality.....

i spent ages typing a reply to this, and not only this post but this whole thread, but it kept reading like utter bollocks. even i dont know what im on about so i dont see how anyone else would.

felt i had to post somthing cos i spent so much time fucking typing. what a waste.

safe for quoting me on that tip .... lol

i thought i explained myself really clearly with a perfectly valid viewpoint...

well then, i suppose everyones' views are all subjective...objective... fucking .. wotever !!

[feasible_weasel]

Decibelllllllaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa