Phantom sub bass and fitting together the low end parts

[bigdaveo11]

Hey guys,

Was reading the other day on another forum about "phantom" sub bass, basically the member was saying to cut the fundamental freq of the sub. I was led to believe this was "incorrect" if you will and the sub is only to be lowpassed to make room for the bass/kick even though I know there is no right or wrong way to do things. The topic came about because I was having trouble layering my low, I wanted my low kick to sit between my sub and my mid/high bass. My sub is a separate basic sine wave. Any tips would be appreciated, couldn't find much on the term "phantom" sub bass.

Thank you.

[Ongelegen]

Eqing the fundamental frequency of a sine will only lower/raise the volume if you cut/boost it. To fit you kick with your sub you can highpass the kick so it doesn't interfere with the frequency of the sub. No need to lowpass a pure sine imo. Make the other elements fit around it.

[VirtualMark]

What you're speaking of is called the missing fundamental

The idea, i believe it that it makes your sub bass more friendly to things like ipods that can't reproduce the ultra lows. It gives the impression of a sub, without actually having a sub.

Personally i'd rather have a hoofing great sine wave underneath everything. Try the usual eqing or sidechaining of the kick until it sits right.

[bigdaveo11]

great explanations, appreciate it. rather have a hoofing sine as well haha! but I will continue to tweak the EQ on my kicks.

In terms of layering techniques where do you guys personally like to have your low end sit (ex: low sub, kick then bass sitting above the kick). Totally personally preference obviously just wondering!

[VirtualMark]

I've always struggled with the sub. Getting the level right is a pain, as its hard to hear clearly in a normal size room. Generally, 0-20hz is infrasonic, you don't want or need any of that, you can't hear it anyway. Humans can hear down to 20 apparently, but i don't go lower than 30 in my tunes. A note frequency chart comes in handy when deciding what key to make a tune in, e f or g was recommended by Reso as playing well in clubs. That's 40-50hz.

Anything above 100hz isn't sub bass, more mid bass. Again, its often recommended to have your kick peak at 100hz to sound good in a club. Chase&Status recommend it in their masterclass, and a few other pro's do. Snare hitting at about 200 too.

Then as for your main bass, maybe roll off at 100 to make room for the kick and sub. Maybe a small notch at 200 for the snare to hit clearly. Or you could just sidechain things so that it ducks when a drum hits, depends what sound you're going for.

The thing that always baffled me about a sub, is what notes to play. Quite often a melody will go up or down a few octaves, whereas you only have a limited range you can play the sub in. Too high and its not sub anymore, too low and it won't be heard on most systems. I've run a few tracks through analyzers, and find that some people use the sub as a tool for rhythm. It doesn't necessarily even need to play the same notes the main bass does, as long as its not clashing. This Emalkay tune for example, has the note rising sharply, yet the sub is just one note. I've noticed this on a lot of tunes, something to think about.

[bigdaveo11]

Thank you virtualmark. response helped me understand layering frequencies much more...that chart will come in handy.

Would be interested to know more too regarding playing the melody with the sub-bass, that is a good question.

[bigdaveo11]

The thing that always baffled me about a sub, is what notes to play. Quite often a melody will go up or down a few octaves, whereas you only have a limited range you can play the sub in. Too high and its not sub anymore, too low and it won't be heard on most systems. I've run a few tracks through analyzers, and find that some people use the sub as a tool for rhythm. It doesn't necessarily even need to play the same notes the main bass does, as long as its not clashing. This Emalkay tune for example, has the note rising sharply, yet the sub is just one note. I've noticed this on a lot of tunes, something to think about.

could anyone expand/further explain the above post regarding playing the sub notes and the higher mid/high range bass notes. Reviving an older thread, thanks!

[fragments]

I usually keep the sub as simple as possible: sine wave, playing just a few notes of the melody...as far as I know this should be keeping everything in tune. As one is supposed to feel the sub more than hear it I see no reason why it has to be overly complex or mimic a complex melody.

Also consider arrangement...there are a million sub bass/kick threads...and for good reason...it's hard to get those two working together. Keep it simple! ...arrange things so the kick and sub play nice together. I often will write tunes where the kick IS the sub...just let that kick have 30-150hz all to itself with absolutely nothing else going on down there...now of course all these ideas are limiting you in some ways, but I've always found imposing limitations help get my creativity flowing...in the world of unlimited possibilities in electronic music narrowing your options can be quite useful.

[bigdaveo11]

great reply, thanks fragments!