E3 thread

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deadly_habit
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Re: E3 thread

Post by deadly_habit » Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:04 pm

collige wrote:
deadly habit wrote:
collige wrote:
deadly habit wrote: It's about time that the devs and publishers get a chunk of the used game market.
No they shouldn't. Why should they? Why should they get special treatment for consumers that exists literally in no other industry, artistic or otherwise? It's the equivalent of saying that labels should get a cut of everything sold on Discogs. If I buy a physical good, I should be able to do whatever the fuck I want with it and sell it to whoever the fuck I want. Copyright law agrees with this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_first_sale
your other mediums don't rely on dedicated server costs for multiplayer, it's why entire online communities have died off once a new version of a game comes out. are you willing to pay a premium to pay multiplayer a la xbox live? sure you have the right to do whatever the fuck you want with your physical copy as far as local singleplayer and multiplayer, but since you're generally relying on a 3rd party to host your multiplayer game, why should used players get access without contributing to the companies who host these servers?
your argument of it being like any other entertainment industry doesn't hold much weight, because gaming isn't like any other entertainment industry.
also if you look at the fine print in most instruction manuals, you're essentially renting access to play the game at the companies discretion. it's why people can be banned permanently for hacks and exploits.
Except that almost every single multiplayer game either has dedicated servers paid for by the community (like Battlefield 3) or just has client to client connections that don't rely on having a server at all (like CoD). Looking at the list of games who do this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_pass), I can't see a single one that actually has servers hosting the games, so that point is kind of moot.

Secondly, we can assume that the cost of hosting multiplayer games for one person is covered by them buying the game new once right? In that case, once the game has been sold off to another consumer who may or may not play the game online, there's no more cost to the host than if the original player had kept the game to play. There's no additional cost to the hosting service once the game has been sold because the old owner can't play the game online. Every copy has to be bought new once and the number of concurrent online players is limited by the number of new discs that were bought. Secondhand sales do nothing to change this.
actually secondhand sales do quite a bit to change this, as you get people who would otherwise be buying new and contributing to maintaining the longevity of a servers cost just recycling the same copies over and over
also it's worth noting that the games without dedicated servers tend to be a gimped service which limits the number of people who can play and is less than ideal, although some companies allow you to host your own servers, there are still dedicated servers ran by the companies, you may not play on them, but people do, otherwise there would be no servers available at game launches.

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Re: E3 thread

Post by collige » Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:08 pm

deadly habit wrote: and look what happened to the series, it got dumbed down more and more every iteration (to bring in those CoD fans) and they're now being forced to make a new ending dlc for free to gain back the consumers trust
Absolutely. But the decline of the series is so heartbreaking BECAUSE of how great of a success the first (and arguably the second) game was. Mass Effect 1 (and other games like Heavy Rain and God of War) have proved that there's still a market for well-made singleplayer experiences.
deadly habit wrote:look at half of the successful studios EA ate up and shat out
i'll list 3 for you Maxis, Westwood, Bullfrog and that's just the tip of the iceberg as far as some of the great companies that EA has ruined
it's no longer about devs, it's about these mega publishers which is why it's rare you see a company like cd projekt or bohemia interactive succeed, and even so they had publishers to start with but have broken off
it's also why kickstarter is nice to see
publishers like activision and ea have horrible business practices and essentially treat their devs like shit, it's why you won't see anyone taking any risks on new ips, because the publishers are run by suits in a board room and not devs who know what gamers want
the devs who do want to do something unique often find a damn hard time to get a budget behind it to compete with these multimillion $ super titles and for some reasons gaming journalists love pointing that out which the masses eat up
Maxis, Westwood, and Bullfrog all got ate up by EA before the current generation of consoles made development costs skyrocket and AAA games because the huge business they are today. I suspect EA didn't even give a shit about the devs and just wanted the IPs. I do have to give props to 2K/Rockstar and Ubisoft for actually taking risks in the past 7 years. Also, when did CDProject have a big publisher backing them? I was under the impression that they got most of their income from running GOG.
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Re: E3 thread

Post by collige » Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:15 pm

deadly habit wrote: actually secondhand sales do quite a bit to change this, as you get people who would otherwise be buying new and contributing to maintaining the longevity of a servers cost just recycling the same copies over and over
I don't see your point here. There's no way for the original owners to keep supporting a publishers servers once they've bought the game anyway. Costwise, what's the difference between one person playing one copy of a game online for two years and 3 people playing one copy of a game online for two years? The original owner might as well ahve just lent the game to his friend when he got bored of it and the end result would be the same.
also it's worth noting that the games without dedicated servers tend to be a gimped service which limits the number of people who can play and is less than ideal, although some companies allow you to host your own servers, there are still dedicated servers ran by the companies, you may not play on them, but people do, otherwise there would be no servers available at game launches.
If most games actually had dedicated servers this would be a good point, but the reality is that they don't and in fact companies usually shut down matchmaking altogether after a few years (especially for sports titles). It's kind of hard to justify charging people for temporary gimped online play.
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Re: E3 thread

Post by deadly_habit » Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:21 pm

collige wrote:
deadly habit wrote: and look what happened to the series, it got dumbed down more and more every iteration (to bring in those CoD fans) and they're now being forced to make a new ending dlc for free to gain back the consumers trust
Absolutely. But the decline of the series is so heartbreaking BECAUSE of how great of a success the first (and arguably the second) game was. Mass Effect 1 (and other games like Heavy Rain and God of War) have proved that there's still a market for well-made singleplayer experiences.
deadly habit wrote:look at half of the successful studios EA ate up and shat out
i'll list 3 for you Maxis, Westwood, Bullfrog and that's just the tip of the iceberg as far as some of the great companies that EA has ruined
it's no longer about devs, it's about these mega publishers which is why it's rare you see a company like cd projekt or bohemia interactive succeed, and even so they had publishers to start with but have broken off
it's also why kickstarter is nice to see
publishers like activision and ea have horrible business practices and essentially treat their devs like shit, it's why you won't see anyone taking any risks on new ips, because the publishers are run by suits in a board room and not devs who know what gamers want
the devs who do want to do something unique often find a damn hard time to get a budget behind it to compete with these multimillion $ super titles and for some reasons gaming journalists love pointing that out which the masses eat up
Maxis, Westwood, and Bullfrog all got ate up by EA before the current generation of consoles made development costs skyrocket and AAA games because the huge business they are today. I suspect EA didn't even give a shit about the devs and just wanted the IPs. I do have to give props to 2K/Rockstar and Ubisoft for actually taking risks in the past 7 years. Also, when did CDProject have a big publisher backing them? I was under the impression that they got most of their income from running GOG.
Atari backed them for The Witcher 1, now they get a nice income from GOG as well
the problem is most companies don't want to take a risk these days when a clone or sequel is guaranteed sales, i mean ffs we're on what number final fantasy and they're rolling out another one as is, but how many original ip rpgs has square-enix rolled out lately? also you named some successful new ips, there have been plenty that have cult followings or critical acclaim, but flopped sales wise due to like you said before not enough cash being invested in marketing them, or them being not marketed at all, or in the shadow of a successful ips sequel

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Re: E3 thread

Post by deadly_habit » Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:28 pm

collige wrote:
deadly habit wrote: actually secondhand sales do quite a bit to change this, as you get people who would otherwise be buying new and contributing to maintaining the longevity of a servers cost just recycling the same copies over and over
I don't see your point here. There's no way for the original owners to keep supporting a publishers servers once they've bought the game anyway. Costwise, what's the difference between one person playing one copy of a game online for two years and 3 people playing one copy of a game online for two years? The original owner might as well ahve just lent the game to his friend when he got bored of it and the end result would be the same.
also it's worth noting that the games without dedicated servers tend to be a gimped service which limits the number of people who can play and is less than ideal, although some companies allow you to host your own servers, there are still dedicated servers ran by the companies, you may not play on them, but people do, otherwise there would be no servers available at game launches.
If most games actually had dedicated servers this would be a good point, but the reality is that they don't and in fact companies usually shut down matchmaking altogether after a few years (especially for sports titles). It's kind of hard to justify charging people for temporary gimped online play.
it's just simple math that you can change exponentially
10 people buy a game, those 10 people trade it in and 10 new people buy it used
who is footing the cost for longevity of the servers?
i mean you named a couple of games that use p2p, which is honestly shit service, but take for example sony who gives you dedicated servers for it's games and doesn't charge you additional fees to access online services vs microsoft charging you to access their network and offering substandard p2p multiplayer
EA and Activision as far as models for business and what should be done yeah i'd just ignore everything they do

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Re: E3 thread

Post by DRTY » Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:29 pm

therapist wrote:I wonder if we'll get to a point where specs simply don't need to be better. Graphics can only be so good.
I doubt it, they haven't really scratched the surface imo. Some games do look amazing but it doesn't take long to notice bum bits.

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Re: E3 thread

Post by cosmic_surgeon » Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:34 pm

It'll end up a battle of raw-processing power eventually, trying to make environments as complex and dynamic as they can. That's what gives the game away most of the time.
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Re: E3 thread

Post by hurlingdervish » Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:40 pm

cosmic surgeon wrote:It'll end up a battle of raw-processing power eventually, trying to make environments as complex and dynamic as they can. That's what gives the game away most of the time.
And thats when cloud gaming swoops in and asks the question:

Can your home console or computer compete with a giant cluster of supercomputers that are consistently upgraded?

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Re: E3 thread

Post by collige » Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:46 pm

deadly habit wrote: Atari backed them for The Witcher 1, now they get a nice income from GOG as well
the problem is most companies don't want to take a risk these days when a clone or sequel is guaranteed sales, i mean ffs we're on what number final fantasy and they're rolling out another one as is, but how many original ip rpgs has square-enix rolled out lately? also you named some successful new ips, there have been plenty that have cult followings or critical acclaim, but flopped sales wise due to like you said before not enough cash being invested in marketing them, or them being not marketed at all, or in the shadow of a successful ips sequel
Most of the cult games I can think of that didn't do amazing sales-wise didn't kill the developers though and have been getting attention for a long time (like Shadow of the Colossus re-release, Psychonauts in Humble Bundle). As for Witcher, I thought Atari just distributed the physical copy like EA and Orange Box.
deadly habit wrote: it's just simple math that you can change exponentially
10 people buy a game, those 10 people trade it in and 10 new people buy it used
who is footing the cost for longevity of the servers?
So you're assuming that the game's user base would die off eventually if it wasn't for people selling it used. If that's the case, then I guess it makes more sense as it then become an issue of people playing the game longer rather than more people playing the game, but if the multiplayer component was actually good, then people wouldn't sell the game to begin with and would keep playing it online (like the Halo games) and the publisher would still have to pay for servers.
EA and Activision as far as models for business and what should be done yeah i'd just ignore everything they do
The funny thing is, EA is doing the online pass bullshit the most too.
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Re: E3 thread

Post by deadly_habit » Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:00 pm

like i said i'm all for used games, but not the forced sale used games like gamestop does, it does more harm and drives up the cost of titles
EA are just greedy fucks, they're doing online pass in addition to whatever nickel and diming they can, along with exclusivity to their service, and now $50 first access and server priority bs
they're just monopolizing a market and people rather than saying whoa hold up are buying it up, so why would they stop?

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Re: E3 thread

Post by _TraX_ » Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:20 pm

All the games look sick, never been crazy for Assasin's Creed but III looks awesome. So many 3rd person duck and covers coming out though....did Uncharted 3 inspire a major cash crop?
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Re: E3 thread

Post by deadly_habit » Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:29 pm

honestly i never gave assassins creed a shot till a few days ago and i'm starting with 1 and i'm hooked
i always thought it was like a medieval hitman clone, how wrong i was
duck and cover and waist high walls we can thank gears of war for

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Re: E3 thread

Post by Dub_freak » Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:30 pm

I'm not really excited about anything I've seen at E3 tbh
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Re: E3 thread

Post by cosmic_surgeon » Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:36 pm

deadly habit wrote:honestly i never gave assassins creed a shot till a few days ago and i'm starting with 1 and i'm hooked
AC1 looks like a tech demo compared to AC2/Brotherhood/Revelations. If you like AC1 you'll shit when you play the rest. They just kept expanding the amount of toys you have to play with in each and every game whilst streamlining the initially clunky combat system. It turned into one of the most open-ended gaming experiences you can have (so long as you ignore the "full synchronisation" bullshit) with some of the most beautiful/interesting settings. Definitely my favourite series atm.
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Re: E3 thread

Post by Electric_Head » Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:49 am

I love the Assassins creed games.
The score is always incredible.
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Re: E3 thread

Post by Hibbie » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:40 am

Electric_Head wrote:I love the Assassins creed games.
The score is always incredible.
The music is absolutely stunning, especially this:

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source ... 23Vp2jFldA

Not too sure how to copy andnpast youtube videos on Iphone so don't know if that link will work^
But it's called Tour of Venice
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Re: E3 thread

Post by demonzEEK » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:42 am


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Re: E3 thread

Post by Forum » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:45 am

cosmic surgeon wrote:
deadly habit wrote:honestly i never gave assassins creed a shot till a few days ago and i'm starting with 1 and i'm hooked
AC1 looks like a tech demo compared to AC2/Brotherhood/Revelations. If you like AC1 you'll shit when you play the rest. They just kept expanding the amount of toys you have to play with in each and every game whilst streamlining the initially clunky combat system. It turned into one of the most open-ended gaming experiences you can have (so long as you ignore the "full synchronisation" bullshit) with some of the most beautiful/interesting settings. Definitely my favourite series atm.
Ive only played the first one but it pissed me off when it keeps going back to the boring sections in the lab. Is that in the second one as well?
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Re: E3 thread

Post by Electric_Head » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:47 am

southstar wrote:
cosmic surgeon wrote:
deadly habit wrote:honestly i never gave assassins creed a shot till a few days ago and i'm starting with 1 and i'm hooked
AC1 looks like a tech demo compared to AC2/Brotherhood/Revelations. If you like AC1 you'll shit when you play the rest. They just kept expanding the amount of toys you have to play with in each and every game whilst streamlining the initially clunky combat system. It turned into one of the most open-ended gaming experiences you can have (so long as you ignore the "full synchronisation" bullshit) with some of the most beautiful/interesting settings. Definitely my favourite series atm.
Ive only played the first one but it pissed me off when it keeps going back to the boring sections in the lab. Is that in the second one as well?
Things develop to where you're in your own villa and you revisit it as desmond in current time.
You even get to run around and explore the city as desmond.
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Re: E3 thread

Post by zeta » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:51 am

Hibbie wrote:
Electric_Head wrote:I love the Assassins creed games.
The score is always incredible.
The music is absolutely stunning, especially this:

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source ... 23Vp2jFldA

Not too sure how to copy andnpast youtube videos on Iphone so don't know if that link will work^
But it's called Tour of Venice
Ezio's family :U:



When the title of AC2 came on with this in the background I got shivers...

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