Gain Structure Question

[FrostByte]

Before I get spammed with mastering sticky links, I should let you know that I have read those threads but I still don't understand something about gain structure. I've been taught that two elements at -6db fill up all of the headroom. If I put two elements at 0db on separate channels and throw a limiter on the master channel, does the -6db rule of thumb still apply? If so why?

[FrostByte]

So basically what I am asking is why bother bringing down the individual levels of sound elements, when i can just take a limiter and bring the master volume down to say -3db?

[legend4ry]

You are not getting the actual point of gain structuring.


The reason you gain structure is so that elements of the track sit in their correct chairs otherwise you'll have sounds all fidgeting around trying to get comfortable which means you'll lose out on clarity and character.

If you do what you are suggesting; then you're just crushing all the life out of your mix. If you want a dynamically poor track then go ahead and do that but gain structuring is important for making a 'full' track..

If your sub and drums are the same volume; they'll be fighting eachother through the mix but if the sub was 4-6db lower they would gel together and make it more interesting... Experiment with it!


There is no 'golden rule' but if you're releasing in this day and age you need a clear, precise, dynamically strong mix down which peaks at around -6db and sent to a talented mastering engineer which will bring up the loudness and fix any EQ, stereo field and/or any other problems he/she can fix which will give your track that professional sound.. Thats just how it works!



Mix to the standards of the industry then if you want to do a self-master for loudness on soundcloud; do it to the final stereo mix wav.

[FrostByte]

Wow that made a huge difference! So generally every sound element I have I want to be putting at a different DB so that they don't clash?

[legend4ry]

Wow that made a huge difference! So generally every sound element I have I want to be putting at a different DB so that they don't clash?

Kinda, its more of having things in their right place I'm struggling to find a good analogy but this is what I look at it (I ain't one for 'proper' terminology...).


Each element of your track will have an "actual" loudness (this is the DB meter on your mixer..) and "Perceived Loudness" (how loud it sounds when its being played). Sounds may pierce through the mix while not being actually loud in DB or not coming through even though its at a high DB; pads are the worse culprit of this.

You want your mixes so every element can be heard clearly (spesh when a lot is playing at once) but not to push things so hard your mix comes out as a giant square block even though its -6db.



Mixing comes with practice but you seem to be on the right track from your sig tune.

[Sharmaji]

this is one of those moments where having a VU meter-- or at least some meter that shows you RMS and peak values-- is really handy. As long as you're not clipping, peak levels really don't matter that much. RMS, which is power/volume/impact/etc is far more important. the #'s of peak levels are pretty irrelevant once you get more than 2 or 3 elements in a mix...

[FrostByte]

That makes sense. So correct me if I'm wrong, but usually the highest point of DB reference is the drums (I put mine at -10db), 2 to 4 db below the drums is the bassline, 6 to 8 db below the bassline is the intro synth and intermission, and in the end you want the master gain to be below -3db for mastering. Sound about right?

[ChadDub]

Think of a rock band. There's the singer, the lead guitar, the rhythm guitar, the bass guitar, and the drums. The drums are the backbone of the song so they're generally behind all the instruments. The lead guitar is in the LEAD, so it's usually the center piece of the instruments, right behind the vocals. The rhythm guitar fills out the lead guitar so it's a little more subtle than the lead guitar. The bass guitar fills out the bottom end of the track and makes everything stick, and it's generally the most subtle part of a rock band.

Mixing is pretty much like that. You have your lead instrument(s), your drums, your bass (Sub and Midbass), and some other stuff that fills it all out. You want each of these instruments to have their own little space in the mix so that they all come out clearly and one isn't overpowering the other. You do this by adjusting the volume (gain) and EQ'ing everything.

[FrostByte]

Awesome guys! Thank you very much, that summed up a big mystery for me.

[josherman454]

-Josh

this is one of those moments where having a VU meter-- or at least some meter that shows you RMS and peak values-- is really handy. As long as you're not clipping, peak levels really don't matter that much. RMS, which is power/volume/impact/etc is far more important. the #'s of peak levels are pretty irrelevant once you get more than 2 or 3 elements in a mix...

Hello,

My name is Josh and I'm from Nebraska. I witnessed you perform at the "Bourbon Theatre" in Lincoln, NE a couple of years ago (Set. 2010) and respect your work immensely.

I realize you are busy busy, and if you can't find the time to answer, no problem.

My questions deal with rms levels and a meter that would show you what the level currently is.

1. Are you looking at the RMS levels of every instrument in the mix? If so, what are some general RMS levels for kicks, snares, hi hats, bass, etc...

2. If a synth pad is currently at -19 RMS, what would be a good level to shoot for (generally speaking), and how would you go about getting it there?

3. Should I be pursuing this idea at all?

Thank you for all the posts you put up! I'm currently going through every post you've ever posted looking for things to learn from.

[nowaysj]

2 things:

1. With all due respect, honestly, I don't think you understood the moneyshot thread. I'd encourage you to reread it in maybe 3 months. It may begin to make more sense. Then read it again maybe 6 months after that, and it should be making perfect sense. There is no shame in failing to understanding something, only in allowing that ignorance to continue.

2. Peak v rms: Peak is what I usually meter for, because it is the law, the cold hard unavoidable law. If I know something is peaking at -12db, I can generally judge the rms, or something equivalent, with my ears. It is just knowing where my peak is as a fixed point to establish other relativistic levels, jew know?

[Sharmaji]

-Josh

this is one of those moments where having a VU meter-- or at least some meter that shows you RMS and peak values-- is really handy. As long as you're not clipping, peak levels really don't matter that much. RMS, which is power/volume/impact/etc is far more important. the #'s of peak levels are pretty irrelevant once you get more than 2 or 3 elements in a mix...

Hello,

My name is Josh and I'm from Nebraska. I witnessed you perform at the "Bourbon Theatre" in Lincoln, NE a couple of years ago (Set. 2010) and respect your work immensely.

I realize you are busy busy, and if you can't find the time to answer, no problem.

My questions deal with rms levels and a meter that would show you what the level currently is.

1. Are you looking at the RMS levels of every instrument in the mix? If so, what are some general RMS levels for kicks, snares, hi hats, bass, etc...

2. If a synth pad is currently at -19 RMS, what would be a good level to shoot for (generally speaking), and how would you go about getting it there?

3. Should I be pursuing this idea at all?

Thank you for all the posts you put up! I'm currently going through every post you've ever posted looking for things to learn from.

cheers. the Bourbon Theater's one of the best venues in the states-- we were talking about it w/ Starkey a few weeks after that gig. Great stuff!

in response:

#1-- not really no. if i'm using a super-limited sound, i may want to see how much RMS i'm working with, but it's really not all that important out of the context of the track as a whole. If I'm going back to edits for a mix and I'm running out of headroom, i may solo a section or a bus and see if there's big peaks in power that don't need to be there, but again-- all about context.

#2-- again, it doesn't matter the # something's it-- just how it fits in the mix. When i need to make things louder, i'll generally reach for a limiter, compression w/ makeup gain, or overdrive. My faders are rarely above zero; if something needs that much of a push, chances are there's a problem w/ the sound at hand, not just the level that it's at.

#3-- pursue everything! Read the moneyshot thread for more detail on gain structure. Also check out interviews on youtube w/ Chris Lord-Alge, Dave Pensado, and Michael Brauer-- these guys are masters of making gain staging work for their mixes.

FWIW when i'm mixing other people's tracks, i generally like to get everything in balance first; no plugs, no eq, no "gain structure," etc. Maybe pull everything down so that the master isn't clipping so much that i can barely hear the music. From there, i'll solo the kick, grab all the faders, and bring everything down until my solo'd kick peaks at about -12; i know from experience i can get a mix with about 2-3db of headroom if I start down there.