Comprimising quality for loudness/punch

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mthrfnk
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Comprimising quality for loudness/punch

Post by mthrfnk » Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:43 pm

I'm not really sure on the direction of this thread, so bear with this post, kinda just me laying out some thoughts hoping that people might discuss them or pick apart my shoddy production techniques :P

This thread kinda follows on from 2 previous posts of mine, one on improving mixdowns and one on getting tracks played on radio. I recently got one of my "demos" played on a local BBC station, and tbh it sounded quite shit. I had expected it to sound a little rough since I basically rushed it just to upload (tbh I didn't even think it would get played) in total I probably spent 4 hours making and mixing the track then I ran it through a mastering chain to make it as loud as possible :oops: (the track is here in case you wanna listen http://soundcloud.com/spectrafunk/dawn-spect-al-demo). This loudness didn't translate across to the radio... anyways this led me to the obvious conclusion that I need to actually do a proper mixdown and decent attempt at mastering before I go about trying to get anything more played or before sending any tracks to labels etc, and also to I need to recheck how my tracks sound in mono since on the radio my track seemed to lose basically all it's stereo image or clarity, idk why.

So I spent a lot of today trying to mix and master a track I recently uploaded to my soundcloud (http://soundcloud.com/spectrafunk/freedom-spectral-wip), I had posted this in the WIP thread and people seemed to think it was good, loud and things were punchy. But I cooked that up in just over 2 hours so there was no way of kidding myself that the mix was in any way perfect, obviously a lot needed doing to it. Specifically if you start to turn that track up louder and louder it starts to fall to pieces, a lot of stuff starts to screech out at you and is probably clipping - namely the vocals, the cymbals and white noisey stuff.

Basically the first thing I did was to actually try and finish the track and sort all the levels, after like 3/4 hours of adding things and tweaking the levels it started to sound okay. So then I bounced it out and ran it through a pretty similar chain of plugins to the WIP version I posted above - namely an EQ (just to filter at 20Hz/18kHz), Comp, iZotope for Harmonic Exciter and Stereo Width and a Limiter (might sound a bit OTT but bear with me). The track sounded a little harsh in places again so I ended up removing the harmonic exciter - it seemed to be making stuff like my crashes and vocals really really harsh, especially when the track ran through the limiter.

So I bounced that version out as a "mastered" copy and gave it a listen through, it sounded good but lacked the raw punch that I felt the version above had (which was badly mixed and rushed "mastering"). So I decided to up the volume to see if I got any of the distortion I had before, turns out it sounded pretty clean at higher volumes but still seemed to be lacking something even though it was blasting through my headphones. In total I've only spent like 6/7 hours messing with the track and obviously I could spend another 6 hours remixing and remixing until it was spot on but I thought I'd come here and post this in the meantime.

Ultimately my question is this, how much do you think you should compromise track quality/clarity for punch/loudness, if you physically can't improve the mix because you simply don't know how. The obvious answer is there shouldn't be a compromise, in the ideal world my mixes would be flawless and if they were my tracks would be clear, punchy and loud as many pro tracks are. But atm I just can't reach that stage of clarity and loudness in the end product.

Wow long post lol... yeah :|
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Re: Comprimising quality for loudness/punch

Post by jrisreal » Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:58 pm

The mix on the first tune sounded pretty tight and punchy, and although its not my style, that isn't something I can criticize abou

The second song did not fall apart at high volume I tried it... is actually sounded pretty nice. It's obvious that its squashed to hell, but it's very fitting for that tune and only made it sound unique.
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Re: Comprimising quality for loudness/punch

Post by Tracks To Wax » Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:22 am

so many approaches you could take,'which I'm sure will get a mention on here...simply though...

...make music and produce. I haven't checked out your examples, but a good punchy mixdown should sound 'punchy' even at low volumes. It's a shame to compromise your sound design and production and introduce noise and distortion in exchange for impact/volume. if you haven't got it at the production and mixdown stage it'll be a battle to force it out at the mastering stage without losing something.

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Re: Comprimising quality for loudness/punch

Post by MassAphekt » Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:29 am

mthrfnk wrote:I'm not really sure on the direction of this thread, so bear with this post, kinda just me laying out some thoughts hoping that people might discuss them or pick apart my shoddy production techniques :P

This thread kinda follows on from 2 previous posts of mine, one on improving mixdowns and one on getting tracks played on radio. I recently got one of my "demos" played on a local BBC station, and tbh it sounded quite shit. I had expected it to sound a little rough since I basically rushed it just to upload (tbh I didn't even think it would get played) in total I probably spent 4 hours making and mixing the track then I ran it through a mastering chain to make it as loud as possible :oops: (the track is here in case you wanna listen http://soundcloud.com/spectrafunk/dawn-spect-al-demo). This loudness didn't translate across to the radio... anyways this led me to the obvious conclusion that I need to actually do a proper mixdown and decent attempt at mastering before I go about trying to get anything more played or before sending any tracks to labels etc, and also to I need to recheck how my tracks sound in mono since on the radio my track seemed to lose basically all it's stereo image or clarity, idk why.

So I spent a lot of today trying to mix and master a track I recently uploaded to my soundcloud (http://soundcloud.com/spectrafunk/freedom-spectral-wip), I had posted this in the WIP thread and people seemed to think it was good, loud and things were punchy. But I cooked that up in just over 2 hours so there was no way of kidding myself that the mix was in any way perfect, obviously a lot needed doing to it. Specifically if you start to turn that track up louder and louder it starts to fall to pieces, a lot of stuff starts to screech out at you and is probably clipping - namely the vocals, the cymbals and white noisey stuff.

Basically the first thing I did was to actually try and finish the track and sort all the levels, after like 3/4 hours of adding things and tweaking the levels it started to sound okay. So then I bounced it out and ran it through a pretty similar chain of plugins to the WIP version I posted above - namely an EQ (just to filter at 20Hz/18kHz), Comp, iZotope for Harmonic Exciter and Stereo Width and a Limiter (might sound a bit OTT but bear with me). The track sounded a little harsh in places again so I ended up removing the harmonic exciter - it seemed to be making stuff like my crashes and vocals really really harsh, especially when the track ran through the limiter.

So I bounced that version out as a "mastered" copy and gave it a listen through, it sounded good but lacked the raw punch that I felt the version above had (which was badly mixed and rushed "mastering"). So I decided to up the volume to see if I got any of the distortion I had before, turns out it sounded pretty clean at higher volumes but still seemed to be lacking something even though it was blasting through my headphones. In total I've only spent like 6/7 hours messing with the track and obviously I could spend another 6 hours remixing and remixing until it was spot on but I thought I'd come here and post this in the meantime.

Ultimately my question is this, how much do you think you should compromise track quality/clarity for punch/loudness, if you physically can't improve the mix because you simply don't know how. The obvious answer is there shouldn't be a compromise, in the ideal world my mixes would be flawless and if they were my tracks would be clear, punchy and loud as many pro tracks are. But atm I just can't reach that stage of clarity and loudness in the end product.

Wow long post lol... yeah :|
i am 100% in the same boat bro, in the end i think its best that you keep striving for that quality of mixdowns and punch regardless if your writtens may hold more aggressive energy than your mixdowns. so youll learn better from the mistakes and create better techniques, it sucks i know but there is always another tune to be made :) in all honesty I scrap 90% of my dubstep "drops" because they simply don't resonate with me, the arrangements almost never fully express the energy i have for the track and it gets VERY discouraging but you gotta keep at it bro, majority of your favorite artists have had professional help or years upon years of experience that had more trial and error than successful tunes, of course my first year producing, the mixdown was just complete ass, but the content had the potential, but as myself have learned more about the importance of mixdown, my creativity in hard electronic music turned to shit but thankfully, my melody writtens have always improved with me :corndance: so overall, keep at it, try make a song a day! doesnt have to be the next big hit, just a simple song but where youll need to put in the work on the mixdowns, layering, fx, dont worry so much about music content when doing this exercise just make it easy as ass with tons of different sounds and layering! Im sure itll help big time
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Re: Comprimising quality for loudness/punch

Post by NinjaEdit » Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:55 am

If loudness-slash-punch is not improving the quality, don't do it.

Radio has its own limiters. Radio-ready does not mean limited; It means "will sound good through a limiter" (which means not limited).

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Re: Comprimising quality for loudness/punch

Post by crunkedxup » Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:53 pm

Depends on your view of quality. I'd say producers like rustie and a lot of "beat scene" hip-hop producers like knxwledge and samiyam do it. But it's become the sound if that makes any sense.

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Re: Comprimising quality for loudness/punch

Post by alpz » Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:03 pm

I've always heard to mix so that your track doesn't need touch-up mastering. Mix for punch at lower volume levels and just boost the volume a bit (or send as is, DJs can raise the volume to the levels they want to work with). Mixing for clarity, depth, and punch can all be done without crazy mastering chains.
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Re: Comprimising quality for loudness/punch

Post by NinjaEdit » Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:46 am

Anybody entertaining mastering for loudness is an idiot. Why does quieter = worse?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

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Re: Comprimising quality for loudness/punch

Post by ehbes » Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:00 am

jonahmann wrote:Anybody entertaining mastering for loudness is an idiot. Why does quieter = worse?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war
because people fail to realize that most audio listening devices enable you to turn the volume up
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Re: Comprimising quality for loudness/punch

Post by NinjaEdit » Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:24 am

Or just listen to it a few decibels quieter?

"there is no connection between sales and "loudness", and that people prefer more dynamic music."

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Re: Comprimising quality for loudness/punch

Post by mthrfnk » Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:17 am

Thanks for the posts everyone.

I totally agree about the loudness war, however the "pro" releases in the sort of music I attempt produce (proghouse/electrohouse) always seem to be brickwalled - so obviously if I don't follow the same process when you play my track in a mix/at a club/on the radio etc back to back with a "pro" track, to the common guy it's probably going to sound weak.
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Re: Comprimising quality for loudness/punch

Post by NinjaEdit » Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:59 am

You missed the bit where people don't prefer loud music.

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Re: Comprimising quality for loudness/punch

Post by mthrfnk » Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:40 am

jonahmann wrote:You missed the bit where people don't prefer loud music.
I didn't miss it at all. Like I said I agree with that, specifically with acoustic/guitar driven music.

That doesn't negate my point though - the top people in EDM brickwall their tracks, therefore to some 15 year old kid who listens to a track by me and then to a pro track - mines probably going to sound weaker, even if I've preserved the dynamics better.

However I don't want to turn this thread into some pissing contest about the rights/wrongs of the loudness war.
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Re: Comprimising quality for loudness/punch

Post by skimpi » Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:02 pm

jonahmann wrote:You missed the bit where people don't prefer loud music.
Well, I dunno about that, if people are buying it then they must like it loud. Theres no doubting that when you play a trac loud and then turn it down, it doesnt sound as good, its just natural. Now Im not saying I love tracks that are squashed to fuck, the more limited it is then more fatiguing it is going to be to listen to it. I do however love to hear my music louder rather than quieter.
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