DSF Q&A 21: Objekt

hardware, software, tips and tricks
Forum rules
By using this "Production" sub-forum, you acknowledge that you have read, understood and agreed with our terms of use for this site. Click HERE to read them. If you do not agree to our terms of use, you must exit this site immediately. We do not accept any responsibility for the content, submissions, information or links contained herein. Users posting content here, do so completely at their own risk.

Quick Link to Feedback Forum
Perej
Posts: 795
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:35 am
Location: West London

Re: DSF Q&A 21: Objekt

Post by Perej » Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:16 pm

static_cast wrote:here's two screenshots covering the sbtrkt remix. the dub and tool mixes (i.e. sbjekt01) are both from later on in the same project file but i zoomed in on the vocal mix for a bit more detail.

as you can see, it's like 80% drums... 35 channels! fuck. ha. most of those are single sounds; only a couple of them (metal, metal 2, foley, idm kit) are multiple sounds in one channel with a drum rack.

i'd forgotten how shit each instrument sounded on its own - it's only as a whole that the drum track sits properly together. mute a couple of the tracks and it sounds pathetic.

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/6020 ... nshot1.png
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/1142 ... nshot2.png
nice one.

So your saying that none of the drums are layered besides the metal and field recording stuff?

staticcast
Posts: 908
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:08 pm
Location: Berlin

Re: DSF Q&A 21: Objekt

Post by staticcast » Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:48 pm

Perej wrote:
static_cast wrote:here's two screenshots covering the sbtrkt remix. the dub and tool mixes (i.e. sbjekt01) are both from later on in the same project file but i zoomed in on the vocal mix for a bit more detail.

as you can see, it's like 80% drums... 35 channels! fuck. ha. most of those are single sounds; only a couple of them (metal, metal 2, foley, idm kit) are multiple sounds in one channel with a drum rack.

i'd forgotten how shit each instrument sounded on its own - it's only as a whole that the drum track sits properly together. mute a couple of the tracks and it sounds pathetic.

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/6020 ... nshot1.png
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/1142 ... nshot2.png
nice one.

So your saying that none of the drums are layered besides the metal and field recording stuff?
oh dude... they're almost ALL layered. you can do that in-line in a channel in live. instrument racks.

EDIT: i meant "single sounds" as in monophonic, as opposed to a "kit". most of those monophonic sounds are still layered.
o b j e k t

Perej
Posts: 795
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:35 am
Location: West London

Re: DSF Q&A 21: Objekt

Post by Perej » Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:18 pm

static_cast wrote:
Perej wrote:
static_cast wrote:here's two screenshots covering the sbtrkt remix. the dub and tool mixes (i.e. sbjekt01) are both from later on in the same project file but i zoomed in on the vocal mix for a bit more detail.

as you can see, it's like 80% drums... 35 channels! fuck. ha. most of those are single sounds; only a couple of them (metal, metal 2, foley, idm kit) are multiple sounds in one channel with a drum rack.

i'd forgotten how shit each instrument sounded on its own - it's only as a whole that the drum track sits properly together. mute a couple of the tracks and it sounds pathetic.

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/6020 ... nshot1.png
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/1142 ... nshot2.png
nice one.

So your saying that none of the drums are layered besides the metal and field recording stuff?
oh dude... they're almost ALL layered. you can do that in-line in a channel in live. instrument racks.

EDIT: i meant "single sounds" as in monophonic, as opposed to a "kit". most of those monophonic sounds are still layered.
oh right, gotcha.

User avatar
_v_
Posts: 936
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:00 pm
Contact:

Re: DSF Q&A 21: Objekt

Post by _v_ » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:42 am

static_cast wrote:
_v_ wrote:cheers Objekt.

How about a random production tip?
dude, we're on page 5 of a thread in which i tell you everything i know about production :roll:

EDIT: ok. when making 4/4 stuff, set up a channel called "sidechain trigger". stick a 909 kick sample (or whatever you like) on all four beats and repeat it for the whole track. mute it and turn the volume down in case. now anything that needs to be sidechained off the kick can be sidechained off this instead.

the advantages to this are various:

- you can sidechain with a faster release than the amplitude envelope of your kick might allow

- the sidechain trigger is still active even when the kick cuts out, so your pads etc don't get super loud during the break (though they might continue to pump, which may or may not be a bad thing)

- if you fuck with your kick, the sidechain effect is still the same

- modern DAWs are heavily optimised for multiple CPUs, and they process different channels on different CPU cores. if one channel is sidechained off another, then the sidechain source has to be processed before the destination can be sidechained, which can drastically increase your CPU load because the processing is now one after the other rather than in parallel. with this method, the sidechain source uses up very little CPU, whereas if you were to sidechain something off the kick and the kick has lots of layers or processing on it (as is very often the case with my kicks), ableton might start stuttering and complaining.


DAW screenshot coming shortly

Right, seems you know know a bit more than whats on the last few pages after all....

just trying to give you an easy one, so you had some freedom to respond.

But you heard the man Q&A is over. No more questions.

Thanks for the tip anyway dude.

peace.


...

Perej
Posts: 795
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:35 am
Location: West London

Re: DSF Q&A 21: Objekt

Post by Perej » Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:47 pm

_v_ wrote:
static_cast wrote:
_v_ wrote:cheers Objekt.

How about a random production tip?
dude, we're on page 5 of a thread in which i tell you everything i know about production :roll:

EDIT: ok. when making 4/4 stuff, set up a channel called "sidechain trigger". stick a 909 kick sample (or whatever you like) on all four beats and repeat it for the whole track. mute it and turn the volume down in case. now anything that needs to be sidechained off the kick can be sidechained off this instead.

the advantages to this are various:

- you can sidechain with a faster release than the amplitude envelope of your kick might allow

- the sidechain trigger is still active even when the kick cuts out, so your pads etc don't get super loud during the break (though they might continue to pump, which may or may not be a bad thing)

- if you fuck with your kick, the sidechain effect is still the same

- modern DAWs are heavily optimised for multiple CPUs, and they process different channels on different CPU cores. if one channel is sidechained off another, then the sidechain source has to be processed before the destination can be sidechained, which can drastically increase your CPU load because the processing is now one after the other rather than in parallel. with this method, the sidechain source uses up very little CPU, whereas if you were to sidechain something off the kick and the kick has lots of layers or processing on it (as is very often the case with my kicks), ableton might start stuttering and complaining.


DAW screenshot coming shortly

Right, seems you know know a bit more than whats on the last few pages after all....

just trying to give you an easy one, so you had some freedom to respond.

But you heard the man Q&A is over. No more questions.

Thanks for the tip anyway dude.

peace.


...
Don't be a sarcy git. The guy has spent time writing out lengthy responses and divulged alot of information. What other 'tip' do you need?

User avatar
_v_
Posts: 936
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:00 pm
Contact:

Re: DSF Q&A 21: Objekt

Post by _v_ » Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:17 pm

Sorry if I missed the bit where the Q&A was politely called a day.
Wont be a bother anymore.


User avatar
dublerium
Posts: 924
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:42 pm
Location: London UK

Re: DSF Q&A 21: Objekt

Post by dublerium » Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:47 am

dublerium wrote:
static_cast wrote:here's two screenshots covering the sbtrkt remix. the dub and tool mixes (i.e. sbjekt01) are both from later on in the same project file but i zoomed in on the vocal mix for a bit more detail.

as you can see, it's like 80% drums... 35 channels! fuck. ha. most of those are single sounds; only a couple of them (metal, metal 2, foley, idm kit) are multiple sounds in one channel with a drum rack.

i'd forgotten how shit each instrument sounded on its own - it's only as a whole that the drum track sits properly together. mute a couple of the tracks and it sounds pathetic.

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/6020 ... nshot1.png
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/1142 ... nshot2.png
So many channels!! So do you start with a loop or do you just start auditioning sounds and begin arranging from the beginning?
^incase this was missed. If you could explain some of your general workflow in live and what you find works best it' be appreciated.

User avatar
RandomEyez
Posts: 1043
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:21 pm
Location: Glasgow

Re: DSF Q&A 21: Objekt

Post by RandomEyez » Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:27 am

Seems i'm a little late to the party, so no question from me but a HUGE thank you for taking the time out to share your knowledge.

Given me lots of inspiration and ideas which i'm now gonna go and put into practice,

Oh, in fact...one sneaky question!

I liked how you mentioned using a muted kick to feed your sidechains as it helps on the CPU front. I'm a poor boy with an ever-degrading laptop to produce on and unfortunately my creativity is often stifled because of audio dropouts/buffering the more I build a track. Just wondering if you could give any tips regarding workflow for people who have the same problem.

For the record I do bounce my midi to audio as soon as I'm happy with the part so 90% of my channels are audio, which I will then bounce again if processed further. And I've just started to write/arrange my tracks without any reverb/delay sends switched on, which I will then switch on at the final mixdown stage. Still not sure if this is gonna be counter-productive but we'll see.

So yeah, any other CPU saving tips/tricks that you could share would be greatly appreciated :)

User avatar
jrisreal
Posts: 4312
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:48 am
Location: the TARDIS

Re: DSF Q&A 21: Objekt

Post by jrisreal » Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:58 am

If there's one musical tool you couldn't live without, what would it be?
...in my opinion
Image
ImageImageImage

joshfeldman
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:08 pm

Post by joshfeldman » Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:13 pm

Hi TJ!

Not sure what's up here looks like there's some rumours of the Q&A being over, however I see nothing about that posted from you so I'm gonna ask my questions anyway.

What are the most important steps you feel you took towards gaining professional success? Many of the people who are making their way in the music industry where I live (Saskatoon, SK, Canada) seem to have good formulas laid down as far as career moves go, but none of them are really making electronic music which clearly a different ballgame. The music I make is my highest priority but I know if just hide in my basement not much is going to happen for me.

I'm planning on sending my next release to the record labels I'm into, but I don't really know what to include with the disk/digital release. Did you ever do much of this? If I were to include information what should I include? Would suggest a cover letter adressed to the specific label?

Have you personally financed agents, promoters or releases? Do you think it's better to make your way up gradually and try to get those things paid for or are you into grant writing?


Also, thank you for doing what you do. Listening to your music is like reading one of the world's most interesting textbooks for me. :)

Josh \\\ Mount Olympus

User avatar
Steve_French
Posts: 863
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:04 pm
Location: Bath

Re: DSF Q&A 21: Objekt

Post by Steve_French » Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:05 pm

although i have asked a few questions, i have one more. When i produce in Live i feel my mixdowns are pretty good, the levels don't clip and i can easily make out the different elements in my mixes. however, when compared to other tracks of a similar nature, mine often seem to quiter, even tho the levels are hitting 0db and have referenced to other tunes. The main place i notice this is in Traktor. both tracks may have 0 added/reduced gain yet (most) my tracks are visually and audibly 'less'

any idea how to combat this?

joshfeldman
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:08 pm

Re: DSF Q&A 21: Objekt

Post by joshfeldman » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:23 am

goodeh wrote:although i have asked a few questions, i have one more. When i produce in Live i feel my mixdowns are pretty good, the levels don't clip and i can easily make out the different elements in my mixes. however, when compared to other tracks of a similar nature, mine often seem to quiter, even tho the levels are hitting 0db and have referenced to other tunes. The main place i notice this is in Traktor. both tracks may have 0 added/reduced gain yet (most) my tracks are visually and audibly 'less'

any idea how to combat this?
i think based on listening to and looking at the track you have posted in your sig that you should take a look at the transient on your kick. The 'click' part of the kick sample looks to me like it's occupying some headroom. I would suggest either EQ'ing your kick or running a multiband and squashing that high frequency. Looks you could get anywhere from 3 to 5 dB more output volume after that!

skimpi
Posts: 4241
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 1:25 am

Re: DSF Q&A 21: Objekt

Post by skimpi » Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:53 pm

Hopefully your still doin this teng

I dont know whether it was this thread or another one, but you mentioned about cutting to vinyl, and being able to cut as loud as you want as there is no 0dbfs. So, when mastering for digital, obviously its brickwalled and cut off at 0 or -0.1 whatever, but is this done when mastered for vinyl, or is it just softly limited to get a slightly livelier and 'bigger' sound but leaving it still fairly dynamic with peaks. I ask this cos I've found that when listening to some vinyl rips, they sound quieter and dont match up to the volume of proper digital files, but they still are peaking at 0, and I would have thought that it would have been limited similarly, meaning that when ripped, if it peaks at 0 then it should be the same loudness, but its not.

These are mainly (LOL) releases that I have on vinyl and I just want on my ipod, as I cant rip them myself, dont want people getting funny. Im not a chief!
TopManLurka wrote: thanks for confirming
OiOiii #BELTER

seanfromiran1
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:43 am

Re: DSF Q&A 21: Objekt

Post by seanfromiran1 » Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:23 pm

big up _v_ for absolutely killing the vibe in this thread

Perej
Posts: 795
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:35 am
Location: West London

Re: DSF Q&A 21: Objekt

Post by Perej » Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:18 pm

seanfromiran1 wrote:big up _v_ for absolutely killing the vibe in this thread
haha

staticcast
Posts: 908
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:08 pm
Location: Berlin

Re: DSF Q&A 21: Objekt

Post by staticcast » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:56 pm

Random Eyez wrote:Seems i'm a little late to the party, so no question from me but a HUGE thank you for taking the time out to share your knowledge.

Given me lots of inspiration and ideas which i'm now gonna go and put into practice,
glad to be of service!
Random Eyez wrote:Oh, in fact...one sneaky question!

I liked how you mentioned using a muted kick to feed your sidechains as it helps on the CPU front. I'm a poor boy with an ever-degrading laptop to produce on and unfortunately my creativity is often stifled because of audio dropouts/buffering the more I build a track. Just wondering if you could give any tips regarding workflow for people who have the same problem.
well, it *can* help on the CPU front... not always.

i'm hesitant to answer this too authoritatively, because CPU usage is a bit of a grey area and every DAW works differently. i know that sidechaining and routing can have quite a big impact in ableton and my guess is that the same would apply for other DAWs, but to be more specific would require some intelligent guesswork.

on a more basic level, you can always freeze or bounce your tracks - often this also has unforeseen workflow benefits too (you might end up timestretching or reversing some bounced bits, cutting up the audio, etc - which you wouldn't have been able to do with a MIDI track).

one thing that many people don't know about live is that you can actually "open up" other live sets in the ableton file browser and load individual channels from them (the set just shows up as a folder, and if you open the folder then you can see all of the constituent tracks, which you can drag back into whatever live set you're currently working on). this makes it really easy to re-import old channels if you bounce to audio and then later want to change something.

For the record I do bounce my midi to audio as soon as I'm happy with the part so 90% of my channels are audio, which I will then bounce again if processed further. And I've just started to write/arrange my tracks without any reverb/delay sends switched on, which I will then switch on at the final mixdown stage. Still not sure if this is gonna be counter-productive but we'll see.

So yeah, any other CPU saving tips/tricks that you could share would be greatly appreciated :)
oops, started replying without reading this bit...

i'm not exactly sure, but i doubt that muting the sends will actually stop the return channel being processed. there's the option to disable sends per track (right click the send amount knob and click disable) which might affect the processing dependency order, but again this is just guesswork on my part.

personally i wouldn't recommend any kind of workflow that involves switching something on "just for the mixdown". this might be an obvious suggestion but it sounds like you need a new computer as a matter of priority... : )

jrisreal wrote:If there's one musical tool you couldn't live without, what would it be?
i don't really have an answer to this. DAW? monitors?
dublerium wrote:
dublerium wrote:
static_cast wrote:here's two screenshots covering the sbtrkt remix. the dub and tool mixes (i.e. sbjekt01) are both from later on in the same project file but i zoomed in on the vocal mix for a bit more detail.

as you can see, it's like 80% drums... 35 channels! fuck. ha. most of those are single sounds; only a couple of them (metal, metal 2, foley, idm kit) are multiple sounds in one channel with a drum rack.

i'd forgotten how shit each instrument sounded on its own - it's only as a whole that the drum track sits properly together. mute a couple of the tracks and it sounds pathetic.

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/6020 ... nshot1.png
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/1142 ... nshot2.png
So many channels!! So do you start with a loop or do you just start auditioning sounds and begin arranging from the beginning?
^incase this was missed. If you could explain some of your general workflow in live and what you find works best it' be appreciated.
i answered this question (kind of) in this interview:

http://keinobjekt.tumblr.com/post/22678 ... 2-unedited

given that all of my finished tracks sound almost nothing like how they did when they started, i guess ultimately it's not really that relevant how i begin. i can't really remember anyway. sometimes it'll be a drum loop, sometimes a synth... i guess usually drums. but those drums rarely last more than a few versions before they get replaced anyway.

joshfeldman wrote:Hi TJ!

Not sure what's up here looks like there's some rumours of the Q&A being over, however I see nothing about that posted from you so I'm gonna ask my questions anyway.
if it is then nobody told me, so i'm happy to carry on... sorry for the long delays, i've been pretty busy!
joshfeldman wrote:What are the most important steps you feel you took towards gaining professional success? Many of the people who are making their way in the music industry where I live (Saskatoon, SK, Canada) seem to have good formulas laid down as far as career moves go, but none of them are really making electronic music which clearly a different ballgame. The music I make is my highest priority but I know if just hide in my basement not much is going to happen for me.
if you're making underground (relatively speaking) dance music, you really should not worry about PR and marketing until someone else is banging at your door offering to do it for you. in these dance music circles, at this point in time at least, good enough music DOES eventually get discovered. it's a comparatively small scene, and IF your music is good enough then it'll find its own way out there - you shouldn't have to promote it yourself, beyond sending it off to a handful of labels and DJs.

there is a world of difference between what we do and, say, how bands approach the same situation: a band is totally reliant on a label spending quite a lot of money on them if they want to get anywhere. such labels simply cannot afford to sign shitloads of bands, and there isn't the market for them either, so competition is very tough and there are a lot of very competent bands who don't get picked up because they haven't quite got the right image, the right connections, whatever.

our little corner of electronic music is, mercifully, not really like that - it's much more meritocratic, not to mention the fact that dance music is orders of magnitude cheaper to produce and release because you don't need to send a band into a studio or buy them lots of new equipment. i guarantee you, if you write good enough music, it won't take much to get it signed. concentrate on making amazing shit and the rest will fall into place.
joshfeldman wrote:I'm planning on sending my next release to the record labels I'm into, but I don't really know what to include with the disk/digital release. Did you ever do much of this? If I were to include information what should I include? Would suggest a cover letter adressed to the specific label?
i did none of this at all (objekt #1 was picked up off DSF by jackmaster actually), but i'm on the receiving end of a lot of it now. sending out demos without seeming like a douchebag shouldn't be difficult, but a lot of people seem to struggle....

my advice is all common-sense stuff:

- (THE MOST IMPORTANT THING) if the label, or whomever you're sending it to, has any specific instructions, then for god's sake follow them...
- pick your targets well (and wait til you're ready). can you really hear your track being released alongside the stuff on this label's back catalogue? if not, don't send it to them.
- be concise. a couple of sentences. it sounds harsh, but if someone's getting sent shitloads of stuff then they simply won't want to hear about your background in a first email.
- important: make it very easy for people to check out your stuff in whatever format would be most convenient for them. include a download link AND a streaming link.
- write to someone by name if possible. say something nice if you like but don't be embarrassing. be polite... but don't sound like you've got a stick up your arse. i always chuckle when someone signs off with "yours sincerely", as if they're applying for a job...

don't expect a reply. i do my best to get back to most people but sometimes it takes me a month or two and sometimes things slip through the net. i don't really believe in replying just to say 'cool tune bro', and diplomatic feedback takes time to construct - time which i don't always have. many producers don't bother checking demos or promos at all. but, like i say, if your stuff is good enough, then someone in the right place will eventually check it out and like it enough to release it, or they'll recommend you to a friend who runs another label.

here is an example of a good demo submission email:

hi hunglebert

i've been a fan of your music since your release on ziggity audio in 2008 or so and would really love to get your opinion on a couple of tracks if you have a spare moment. they're currently unsigned and looking for a home - i'm sending them for blooper records consideration but any constructive feedback would be hugely appreciated either way. i haven't released anything before but "i guess everyone has to start somewhere"/"i sent these to skrillex and he seemed to like them" [delete as appropriate]

'bumblebee' is a minimal nu-gabber track inspired by labels like fucktard alliance and brunt industries... 'dandelion' is a bit more three-steppy but still basically a dancefloor track.

stream: http://www.soundcloud.com/woifdslkfja;kdfjkdsjklds
download: http://www.yousendit.com/weiorewiodfsjkdfjksdljkdsf

thanks a lot!

pedro



joshfeldman wrote:Have you personally financed agents, promoters or releases? Do you think it's better to make your way up gradually and try to get those things paid for or are you into grant writing?
i've never self-financed a release, and i would definitely not recommend it until you're an established name. that's what labels are for, and their selectivity is an important function. if you can't get a track signed by one of the myriad of small labels out there, then chances are it's not good enough that loads of people would buy it if you were to release it on your own.

re: agents and promoters, i'm not sure you understand their function... promoters put on clubnights and events, and they approach artists to play at these events. generally speaking, promoters will book artists who (a) they like and (b) have enough of a following that they'll pull in a crowd. you don't pay a promoter, the promoter pays you... but only if he/she books you to play a show.

an agent handles the bookings of an artist, because when you're doing more than a couple of gigs a month, it's generally good to have someone else organizing your travel, negotiating fees, and generally acting as a barrier between artist and promoter. agents do help you get gigs that you wouldn't otherwise get, but only once you're on a certain level - for example, they'll push for you to be included in a festival lineup because they also happen to be the agent of some big name acts that the festival would like to book.

agents will approach you once you've had a release or two out and they think that promoters would be interested in booking you. it's very rare (and kinda pointless) for a totally unknown artist to have an agent.
joshfeldman wrote:Also, thank you for doing what you do. Listening to your music is like reading one of the world's most interesting textbooks for me. :)
thanks : )
o b j e k t

staticcast
Posts: 908
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:08 pm
Location: Berlin

Re: DSF Q&A 21: Objekt

Post by staticcast » Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:16 pm

goodeh wrote:although i have asked a few questions, i have one more. When i produce in Live i feel my mixdowns are pretty good, the levels don't clip and i can easily make out the different elements in my mixes. however, when compared to other tracks of a similar nature, mine often seem to quiter, even tho the levels are hitting 0db and have referenced to other tunes. The main place i notice this is in Traktor. both tracks may have 0 added/reduced gain yet (most) my tracks are visually and audibly 'less'

any idea how to combat this?
well, your tracks are unmastered. i don't know if you're running them through a limiter (the waveform doesn't look like it), but you can't compare the level of an unmastered track with that of something that's been released and expect to hear the same perceived volume. anything mastered will have been pushed through varying degrees of limiting (depending on the engineer) in order to make it louder. this is not something you should worry about doing to your own tracks, and it's better to leave it to a mastering engineer because they'll do a better job of it.

however, this is often a good indicator of how balanced your mixdown is. if you put a limiter on your master bus and boost the gain, and can't get it anywhere near the loudness of your favourite releases of a similar genre, then it's likely that something in your mix isn't sitting right. (often too much sub.)
skimpi wrote:Hopefully your still doin this teng

I dont know whether it was this thread or another one, but you mentioned about cutting to vinyl, and being able to cut as loud as you want as there is no 0dbfs. So, when mastering for digital, obviously its brickwalled and cut off at 0 or -0.1 whatever, but is this done when mastered for vinyl, or is it just softly limited to get a slightly livelier and 'bigger' sound but leaving it still fairly dynamic with peaks. I ask this cos I've found that when listening to some vinyl rips, they sound quieter and dont match up to the volume of proper digital files, but they still are peaking at 0, and I would have thought that it would have been limited similarly, meaning that when ripped, if it peaks at 0 then it should be the same loudness, but its not.
there are a number of reasons for this. one of them is that, as you said, it's not necessary to limit so heavily when cutting to vinyl, since there's no peak "maximum" apart from that which arises from mechanical limits (e.g. the cutting stylus going all the way through the acetate, or the needle jumping out of the groove, or running out of space on the record). but the other reason is that any processing applied after a brickwall limiter will essentially render the limiting useless. a brickwall limiter is designed to limit the peak amplitude of a signal, but the peak amplitude of a complex signal isn't actually that meaningful a quantity in terms of signal processing. if you limit a signal like this (or clip it for that matter) and then apply more processing to it (such as cutting to vinyl, or more EQ), the peaks just reappear. this is easy to see if you hard clip a sine wave - limiting its peak amplitude - and then apply some EQ. look at the result on an oscilloscope and you'll see that the "clipped" edge of the wave is no longer flat, but all kinds of funny shapes. this is why the limiter is always last in the signal chain.

the terrible irony of the loudness wars is that commercial mastering engineers limit the fuck out of a track and then hard clip it in order to get it as loud as possible, but radio stations have their own loudness processing, starting with phase rotation, which works well on "natural" signals but completely fucks such hardclipped signals and makes them sound not only bad, but actually quieter than they would have sounded had they just left it alone.

EDIT: more info here. quite an interesting article on the signal processing that goes on in FM radio and why it doesn't play nicely with heavily limited and clipped tracks. http://www.masterdigital.com/24bit/mastering/radio.htm
o b j e k t

User avatar
RandomEyez
Posts: 1043
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:21 pm
Location: Glasgow

Re: DSF Q&A 21: Objekt

Post by RandomEyez » Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:44 pm

Thanks for answering that impossible question :)

And I think you actually nailed it...
static_cast wrote: it sounds like you need a new computer as a matter of priority... : )
Gonna save the pennies and get myself a powerful macbook and stop fucking about. Sick of making tracks that i'm loving and that have potential but not completing cos of my lappy's blantantly not man enough to handle it. Time to raise my commitment to this game!

joshfeldman
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:08 pm

Re: DSF Q&A 21: Objekt

Post by joshfeldman » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:06 pm

Thanks for the great advice! I'll have to send a demo message your way.

It sounds like maybe my background in the indie rock scene has conditioned me to think about "making it" in a way that doesn't seem to apply in the electronic music scene. I'm more used to the idea that without tons of press and a huge resume, you wont get any attention from anyone. The idea that all it takes to be successful is having amazing music sure appeals to me though.

User avatar
zerbaman
Posts: 2783
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:05 am

Re: DSF Q&A 21: Objekt

Post by zerbaman » Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:20 am

for the 1000th time, thanks for doing this, I don't think I've ever been as pleasantly surprised to drop into the Production forum as I was when I logged in today.

Hoping I'm not too late :6:

1 -
almost everything is dead centre. there's quite a lot of stereo content, but this is usually through layering an instrument and panning the layers left and right (e.g. a 606 hat with an 808 hat). sometimes i will automate the pan for creative purposes, but in a more functional mixdown sense i prefer to think in terms of "mid-sides" than "left-right".
Would panning on hat elements be real soft-pan? Or virtually all the way hard-panning?
Does it differ in pursuit of particular effects? What would you say the effect(s) may be?


2 -
also, see my answer above - in the end i found that working on one track at a time is generally very bad for creative blocks
Care to elaborate? - This isn't really important, I'd just like to know more about your productive ethic, so to speak, like a fly on the wall of your apartment.


3 -
good mixdown practice is good mixdown practice. the only specific vinyl no-no i can think of is heavy "side" content in the bass, since vinyl is cut in such a way that the mono content makes the needle oscillate laterally (left-right) and the stereo content makes the needle oscillate vertically, so lots of stereo content in the low end can make the needle jump out of the groove or the cutting stylus "bottom out" into the aluminium base of the master lacquer. but this is actually not bad advice for digital mixdowns either, since club soundsystems are often limited by the power of their subs, and making sure your low end is mono-only can maximise the amount of low end power you get out of a crappy system (think about it like this - if you pan something hard left then you have to boost it by 6dB to get the same volume out of it, and that might trigger the limiter earlier than if it were in mono). same applies to a heavily limited radio mix (if your track is destined for the radio).
I've personally always gone mono from 200hz downwards. This may be a slightly sappy question, but is that good? Would it be better to go lower?
I'm pretty ignorant with regard to sound control/manipulation.


4 -
however, this is often a good indicator of how balanced your mixdown is. if you put a limiter on your master bus and boost the gain, and can't get it anywhere near the loudness of your favourite releases of a similar genre, then it's likely that something in your mix isn't sitting right. (often too much sub.)
Thanks for that, I've had a similar issue, and this is golden advice.



5 - I'd like to ask about the Objekt#1 & 2, 1 in particular I suppose. I understand from interviews that you arranged distribution (for some reason, I believe it was at the distributor's expense? correct me if I'm wrong of course). Did you do any further promo of it? Was it just sending to the right people at the right radio stations from here? I caught on to you fairly late so I didn't really witness your asent.

On a related point, did you have any releases before hand? As static cast or TJ perhaps? (I understood that you taking on the name Objekt was accidental).
Did you 'know' #1 would become what it was when you were originally approached with the idea to release? How did it feel (obviously good, did you feel pressured about that all eyes on you kind of thing?)

6 - I think I read somewhere that the goose started as an attempt to make some kind of pop tune? Would it be completely outrageous to request some audio of the first project file?

7 - I obviously wouldn't ask for specifics (names etc), but have you been working collaboratively with other musicians in the scene? Even a remote prospect of something coming out? Who would you be interested in working with, why?

8 - Do you find yourself consistently satisfied with your productions? Are you more of a self-critical type? How long do you think it took for you to develop some consistency with your productions?


Sorry if this is all a lot.
Finally, Thanks again, having read through, I've seen some indispensable info.
:K:
Do you say zerbaman? Or do you say zebraman?
Soundcloud

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests