Anders Behring Breivik is sane and gets 21yrs

[noam]

It disgusts me that this has even dwindled in a discussion of moral ambivalence?
All this talk of rehabbing and "leaving the door open" is nothing but ego-stroking bullshit. This discussion of virtuosity is just so far fucking detached from the reality here, and does nothing but try to feed others the impression that you are wise and worldly. Get real.

[Today]

they have court procedures, precedent and legal framework to determine whether single victim homicides were premeditated, "in cold blood," etc. to determine sentences
we all know there are different levels of crime
and that intent is a significant determinant of sentencing

people are calling me stupid for claiming oh, killing 77 people is different than killing one (or any other crime -- wow)
I think if you don't see it as different you're fucking insane
it's not that complicated
we have penalties for attempted murder, accidental death whilst committing a felony, manslaughter in the first, second, third degree
Why shouldn't we have one for mass premeditated homicide, with the intent to kill as many targets as possible -- it doesn't have to be capped off at ten, twenty, fifty, or five victims
It's not the same as some 1 to 1 disgruntled ex husband kind of shooting
i personally don't give a fuck whether you're sane or not. If something goes off in your brain where you determine it necessary to waste every surrounding human being, and you've gone and obtained the weapons and munitions to do so, and carried out that plan

I believe it's a society's duty to terminate you
i wouldn't want to share oxygen with someone like that, much less spend another moment trying to fix them
that's a valid opinion, don't know why i'm being reduced to bullshit over it

[nousd]

sorry noam
I'm not usually an advocate for the death penalty
because it can be misapplied
but in clear conscience
I, personally, could put this fellow down,
not for what he thinks or advocates
but for his being, beyond-doubt, guilty of mass murder.
Willfull & unrepentant, he forgoes his right to live amongst us.

[AxeD]

I'm sorry but do people in this thread actually think this guy deserves anything other than a ninja star to the eyes?
There's no way you can rehab somebody like this. He doesn't even fucking deserve it. He has NO respect for people's right to life, no remorse, no empathy, NOTHING.

He's a fucking tnuc and he should burn in hell.
His face when he was having his sentence given....that little fucking smirk. I'm sorry but if that didn't boil your fucking blood then you are probably more fucking detached from humanity than he is.

He actually seriously reminds me of the Joker. Some men just want to watch the world burn. People like that should be submerged and drowned in a bath of fire ants.

I mostly agree. Although it's a bit worse, because the Joker was definitely insane. This guy is mentally quite strong
and has a passion for murdering kids.

[hugh]

I'm sorry but do people in this thread actually think this guy deserves anything other than a ninja star to the eyes?
There's no way you can rehab somebody like this. He doesn't even fucking deserve it. He has NO respect for people's right to life, no remorse, no empathy, NOTHING.

He's a fucking tnuc and he should burn in hell.
His face when he was having his sentence given....that little fucking smirk. I'm sorry but if that didn't boil your fucking blood then you are probably more fucking detached from humanity than he is.

He actually seriously reminds me of the Joker. Some men just want to watch the world burn. People like that should be submerged and drowned in a bath of fire ants.

I mostly agree. Although it's a bit worse, because the Joker was definitely insane. This guy is mentally quite strong
and has a passion for murdering kids.

I don't think we know enough about the brain and the human condition to define insanity with that level of confidence. He might not be insane in the traditional throwing-your-shit-at-the-wall kind of way but he has clearly completely emotionally detached himself from the whole thing and made this ridiculous scenario up in his head where he can justify the murders.
If that's not psychopathic or insane I don't know what is.

[JBoy]

I'm all for fairness and equality but when someone commits a crime this serious, with a total lack of respect for human life coupled with zero remorse then they forfit any human decency in return. He doesn't deserve to live in my opinion and anyone who thinks that he can be rehabilitated like some common criminal is clearly wrong.

This isn't a situation where details and evidence are sketchy, the judge and jury aren't misinformed or convicting an innocent man. He killed with clear intent and total lack of human feeling, seeing it as a duty almost. Why should someone like that deserve anything other than death?

[capo ultra]

Noam generally has a good argument but it's clear you fell in love with yourself and dropped the ball here. is not a good argument in my opinion

there's fucking shit loads of murderers/paedophiles/racists released all the time who dont get killed, because the majority of the population aren't animals who can murder people
.

as I said i admire your naivety

[hugh]

I just don't get how we can have a discussion about this guy as if he were a human being.

[hugh]

It disgusts me that this has even dwindled in a discussion of moral ambivalence?
All this talk of rehabbing and "leaving the door open" is nothing but ego-stroking bullshit. This discussion of virtuosity is just so far fucking detached from the reality here, and does nothing but try to feed others the impression that you are wise and worldly. Get real.

[capo ultra]

the point that I am making is this:

If you rehab this guy and change his way of thinking and release him to the general population, you are giving him a death sentence.

If you can't comprehend this statement then I can't help you.

If you disagree with this statement, then I admire your naivety.

you aren't going to sentence someone to death because they're not massively liked in the public eye and releasing them would see them potentially hurt.. because thats. a. fucking. dumb. argument. LOL.

what the fuck are you even talking about, how does what you said relate the the above?

[yoowan]

100% agree with noam here, making excellent points mate

if there is even the smallest chance of reform and rehabilitation (which there always is) then the opportunity must be taken

[hugh]

100% agree with noam here, making excellent points mate

if there is even the smallest chance of reform and rehabilitation (which there always is) then the opportunity must be taken

why? Is there a benefit to society to bring this guy back in the fold? Would you be happy if he got a job where you worked or moved in next door? I doubt it.

[noam]

Noam generally has a good argument but it's clear you fell in love with yourself and dropped the ball here. is not a good argument in my opinion

there's fucking shit loads of murderers/paedophiles/racists released all the time who dont get killed, because the majority of the population aren't animals who can murder people
.

as I said i admire your naivety

dont be coy

naivety has nothing to do with it

it wasn't an attempt at an argument by the way, any argument i could have made has already been made, sitting here trying to insult me will result in my at you, it was just me laughing at Hugh

all this crap about it being to do with my ego is shit you lot have just decided because people started going on about me 'never losing an argument' so drop that shite for a start cos i haven't changed my tune once in this thread, this whole discussion started because i took a certain line and i've stuck with it because i believe im right and i haven't read one proper argument that has done anything to convince me otherwise... dont see anyone going on about Dubforddessert's argument, though its exactly the same as mine, so bore off with that for a start.

the point that I am making is this:

If you rehab this guy and change his way of thinking and release him to the general population, you are giving him a death sentence.

If you can't comprehend this statement then I can't help you.

If you disagree with this statement, then I admire your naivety.

you aren't going to sentence someone to death because they're not massively liked in the public eye and releasing them would see them potentially hurt.. because thats. a. fucking. dumb. argument. LOL.

what the fuck are you even talking about, how does what you said relate the the above?

i thought you were talking about general population as in society, if you're talking about prison then its crossed wires, if you were actually talking about society then as above.

I just don't get how we can have a discussion about this guy as if he were a human being.

unlucky, he is.

its funny, i come from both muslim(dad) and jewish(mum) descent, i haven't brought that up once in this thread because i dont need to, the argument as is stands on its own, but as a person that this guy would gladly like to see wiped off the face of the earth, i take a very certain line with this kind of shit.

having experienced attitudes like his in the past, i KNOW first hand the best way to deal with them, and i like to think that naivety plays less of a role in my decision making than perhaps some of you like to think it does.

as i've said before, i've made my case in this thread numerous times, go back quote me, counter the points i've made, and i'll respond to them but rehashing the same stuff i've already approached won't get any of us very far

dont listen to all this crap people are chatting, you want a discussion i'll discuss. you want a slanging match, pm me or something

peace

[wilson]

sorry noam
I'm not usually an advocate for the death penalty
because it can be misapplied
but in clear conscience
I, personally, could put this fellow down,
not for what he thinks or advocates
but for his being, beyond-doubt, guilty of mass murder.
Willfull & unrepentant, he forgoes his right to live amongst us.

Death penalty can never be a justifiable means of punishment in my view. The ultimate punishment, if that's what people want, for this man would be for him to see his country become more culturally diverse, tolerant and democratic, just as their prime minister pledged to make happen. Let him stew in his twisted hatred, knowing that what he did did nothing to further his goals. You can't punish murder with (legal) murder and claim the moral high ground. We're not even sure how much our concept of free will is real as opposed to perceived, but that's another debate in itself.

[nousd]

^what I was saying in my first post:

his greatest punishment will be knowing he failed

but I'm not talking about his punishment in the later post,
I'm talking about his removal.
Like you I abhor state-sponsored execution
but at the same time, given the opportunity, I would take the responsibility for putting him down,
not from hatred or wanting to hurt him (his damaged psyche may not be his fault)
but simply because his ongoing mindset remains a risk I don't believe we should tolerate.

[noam]

^what I was saying in my first post:

his greatest punishment will be knowing he failed

but I'm not talking about his punishment in the later post,
I'm talking about his removal.
Like you I abhor state-sponsored execution
but at the same time, given the opportunity, I would take the responsibility for putting him down,
not from hatred or wanting to hurt him (his damaged psyche may not be his fault)
but simply because his ongoing mindset remains a risk I don't believe we should tolerate.

thats what prisons for bro

[nousd]

not in this country
it's a cruel punishment here
always has been
you come out scarred
and aren't compensated if exonerated

but I've rethought:
there is some hate in my determination that I am capable of putting Brevik to death
and that, to meet our highest aspirations he should be given a chance to redeem himself,

it's hard to rise above
that superior smirk

[olly]

fuck sake. who cares if there is the possibility for him to be rehabilitated?
What good would that do to anyone other than Brevik?
Its annoying noam, how much relevance you think the words your typing have. These are your opinions, not everyone's. Your not right and everyone else wrong. mmmkay?

[garethom]

These are your opinions, not everyone's. Your not right and everyone else wrong. mmmkay?

Exactly the same for you, dude.

[olly]

These are your opinions, not everyone's. Your not right and everyone else wrong. mmmkay?

Exactly the same for you, dude.

yes but I'm not belittling other peoples opinions. I don't think everything I say is correct, i acknowledge that its MY OPINION.