Factory of Life (bioengineering article)

[test_recordings]

I know that but you seem more clued up about the science side of GM so what`s the crack on the data front? Can I go find it all myself or what?

[skell1ngton777]

kill all scientists

whos with me

[nowaysj]

Lex start with academics and see how it goes.

[kay]

I know that but you seem more clued up about the science side of GM so what`s the crack on the data front? Can I go find it all myself or what?

Wasn't me on the GM data, that was knell. I'm more interested in how genes work, how they affect physical traits, what sort of modifications can be done, methods for making modifications, using biological knowledge to further develop other branches of science, ie the background science bit of bioengineering. Can't say I've ever looked into a single report on GM crops as I am not averse to the introduction of GM crops. My only concern with GM crops is that genetic diversity needs to be managed/maintained so that we don't end up with a situation where an entire crop species gets wiped out by a single disease.

Here's an example of a controlled genetically modified plant that should not spread or take over other plants of its species: Giant tobacco plants. They are programmed to not flower, so can't breed with normal tobacco plants.

[skell1ngton777]

can you being some of your guns i dont got none

[nowaysj]

I will bring my water ballon launcher for you.

[knell]

I know that but you seem more clued up about the science side of GM so what`s the crack on the data front? Can I go find it all myself or what?

I listed exhaustive data sources in that giant wall of text I posted on the other page that summarize the issues fairly well. There are 2,000+ more of them, if you'd like to take a look at those as well.

Albeit some of it is behind a paywall, but I'm subscribed to most of the things i linked so just let me know which articles you'd like to read in full and i can work something out.

Aside from that, I've said just about everything I can on the matter, so if you're looking to combat an overwhelming consensus then the burden of proof is on you I'm afraid, and it will have to be more than picking and choosing individual line items that have been shown not to work (as again, this is part of the process). The vast majority of scientific evidence indicates that he health and safety is sound when properly managed, and the rest is all political. Over 2 billion people over multiple generations have been eating and continue to eat GM foods, and the only really major concern at this point is obesity from abundance, which is another issue altogether.

Plenty to talk about on the political front though!

[test_recordings]

Okay the concensus is on published data, yes? The article I posted was dealing with UNPUBLISHED data that challenged the concensus.

That`s the issue at hand, publishing data and its availability to interested parties, which should mean anyone who wants a look.

So, how much data is being hidden away? Have you ever thought about it? For ethical reasons, psychological researchers are basically bound to releasing data if requested. I see no such safeguards with GM research as I have just proved: there had to be a lengthy legal challenge to publish data that should have been made available in the first place.

It sounds to me like you are talking only about published data and haven`t mentioned anything about accounting for things that are as yet to be revealed. It`s quite a common problem in science, it seems....

[knell]

Rhetorical questions (since they contain assumptions from me) for you to consider:

• What is the extent of your knowledge on the chemicals that your rub into your scalp on a daily basis to clean your hair?
  
  What about the ones you rub under your arm to prevent from stinking?
  
  What about the beverages you might drink on a daily basis, like coffee?
  
  What about any other number of the agents listed in the IARC as potential carcinogens, such as... having an occupation as a firefighter?

Now, a non-rhetorical question specifically for anti-GM people:

• What extent of study would you like to be seen conducted to find out the true nature of things that many denizens of the western world use and interact with on a daily basis without apparent harm, such as WiFi, carpentry and the Earth's magnetic field? At what point would you be satisfied that enough research has been done to be able to continue your life without constant peril?

A bit of a straw man thought experiment, but hopefully you can extrapolate my point. Your fault is not contained in an ignorance of GMs, it lies within a drastic misunderstanding of risk assessment in the modern world.

[test_recordings]

You still haven`t answered my question about how much data is being withheld.

I understand how risks are calculated and I also understand they are calculated from data. For instance, an analogy: the nuclear accident in Japan in 2011 was thought to be generally containable with a substantial but not overly severe, until more data was released to show it was actually much worse than previously thought. Up until the release of the newer data, there was a certain risk calculation then after the extra data was analysed the risk calculation changed.

Stop asking rhetorical questions and just answer my straightforward one :p

EDIT: as yet more evidence of GM safety concerns and evidence for refuting the concensus that `GM is safe`, India banned all field trials last year until certain criteria have been met. These criteria include re-examination of safety data due to previous published recommendations using the sets ignoring significant or consistent problematic indicators. Other issues include removing vested interests from advisory panels. Previous guidelines also did not stipulate safety tests were required and this has been revised - everything`s fine if you don`t look, no?

Here are the reports:

http://indiagminfo.org/wp-content/uploa ... MO-PIL.pdf
http://indiagminfo.org/wp-content/uploa ... 294_SC.pdf

Independent verification (and not all positive about the governments actions):
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... s-gm-crops
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ind ... nd-economy
http://businessmirror.com.ph/index.php/ ... government
http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsid ... m-fie.html
http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsid ... f-gm-.html

[test_recordings]

Sorry I`m bored so I`ll answer the rhetorical questions to make you aware how relevant they are to my life.

What is the extent of your knowledge on the chemicals that your rub into your scalp on a daily basis to clean your hair?

I stopped using all synthetic hair products after some research in to their effects and my hair actually improved to the point I would never consider using them ever again. It also occurred to me that the marketing and a potential `obsolesence` factor was making them useless after a certain period and creating a certain dependency effect on my body. My diet is also very thought out and I eat fucking heathily - not just based on the info you get in the media like `eat less fat` and `drink more water`, I actually researched it and continuously review the evidence so this probably helps somewhat.

What about the ones you rub under your arm to prevent from stinking?

I stopped consuming dairy products, meat and sugar - consequetly, I don`t really smell. Deodorant is actually banned at work. The prime reason your sweat stinks is probably from pastuerised, unfermented dairy as it can`t be digested properly

What about the beverages you might drink on a daily basis, like coffee?

I am aware of some of the effects of conventional agriculture on the ecological system and have worked on organic farms to envision the large-scale practice of it. I try to minimise my non-organic consumption and use of petrochemical-based tupperware, implements etc because of the evidence of the harm they could cause across the lifespan and between generations. Certain countries foods are therefore blacklisted...

What about any other number of the agents listed in the IARC as potential carcinogens, such as... having an occupation as a firefighter?

I think about them logically... a firefighter is exposed to highly likely carcinogens carcinogens, e.g. asbestos. I`m not going to take the figures at fact value.

Being alive is the leading cause of death, you know?

[kay]

Thought this might be of interest:

UK Synthetic Biology Roadmap

[test_recordings]

Interestng. Reeading through the first flow diagram, there is no actual safety testing stage - yet there is a clearly a channel highlighting it. Hopefully it will be overtly considered a continuous process.

However, it is dealt with at numerous points in the rest of the manuscript. Let's see what happens - they will have to 'satisfy public concerns' more than at just the beginning, I think.

[test_recordings]

First ever independent lifetime GMO toxicity trial shows substantial toxicity indicators.

Long term toxicity of a Roundup herbicide and a Roundup-tolerant genetically modified maize

Abstract

The health effects of a Roundup-tolerant genetically modified maize (from 11% in the diet), cultivated with or without Roundup, and Roundup alone (from 0.1 ppb in water), were studied 2 years in rats. In females, all treated groups died 2–3 times more than controls, and more rapidly. This difference was visible in 3 male groups fed GMOs. All results were hormone and sex dependent, and the pathological profiles were comparable. Females developed large mammary tumors almost always more often than and before controls, the pituitary was the second most disabled organ; the sex hormonal balance was modified by GMO and Roundup treatments. In treated males, liver congestions and necrosis were 2.5–5.5 times higher. This pathology was confirmed by optic and transmission electron microscopy. Marked and severe kidney nephropathies were also generally 1.3–2.3 greater. Males presented 4 times more large palpable tumors than controls which occurred up to 600 days earlier. Biochemistry data confirmed very significant kidney chronic deficiencies; for all treatments and both sexes, 76% of the altered parameters were kidney related. These results can be explained by the non linear endocrine-disrupting effects of Roundup, but also by the overexpression of the transgene in the GMO and its metabolic consequences.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 1512005637

Notice how this is the first ever long-term study, two years - i.e. a rat lifetime. Most trials stop at 90 days, which is like looking at an 8 year old and deciding it'll be okay when it's 45.