short little rant about ableton.

[Perej]

I'd agree with you. Thing is with Ableton is that it's so user friendly and it's hard to produce on anything else once you've used it, which is a shame because it falls woefully short when it comes to mixing and I've never been happy with the sound.
The general consensus seems to be that arranging in Ableton then mixing in Logic / S1 / PT is the way forward, I just wish that wasn't necessary.

Sounds like you been spending too much time on gearslutz. They'll tell you the same about reason, people still release tunes off it.

So what? Just because people release off it doesn't mean that many of them don't export the entire project and put it into Logic / Pro Tools to mix it.
Objectively speaking, there is quite obviously a subtle sonic difference in tunes produced on say, Logic, compared with Ableton. Like you, I denied it at first, being an ableton fanboy, but eventually I caved. I've never been on the gearslutz forum for more than 2 minutes and have never read a DAW war on there, it's just immediately obvious if you are as anal about sound quality as I am. There is no discussion to be had, it's a fact.

Ableton is a fantastic program, it's creative, intuitive and fun, but I'd be very surprised if someone could give a single example of a tune in the popular charts that was produced entirely within it

[Kit Fysto]

I'd agree with you. Thing is with Ableton is that it's so user friendly and it's hard to produce on anything else once you've used it, which is a shame because it falls woefully short when it comes to mixing and I've never been happy with the sound.
The general consensus seems to be that arranging in Ableton then mixing in Logic / S1 / PT is the way forward, I just wish that wasn't necessary.

Sounds like you been spending too much time on gearslutz. They'll tell you the same about reason, people still release tunes off it.

So what? Just because people release off it doesn't mean that many of them don't export the entire project and put it into Logic / Pro Tools to mix it.
Objectively speaking, there is quite obviously a subtle sonic difference in tunes produced on say, Logic, compared with Ableton. Like you, I denied it at first, being an ableton fanboy, but eventually I caved. I've never been on the gearslutz forum for more than 2 minutes and have never read a DAW war on there, it's just immediately obvious if you are as anal about sound quality as I am. There is no discussion to be had, it's a fact.

Ableton is a fantastic program, it's creative, intuitive and fun, but I'd be very surprised if someone could give a single example of a tune in the popular charts that was produced entirely within it

It is indeed a fact. A widely known one actually. If you research it you will find an abundance of legitimate information to as why ableton bounces aren't living up to the same sonic standards. That might not concern everyone, but if you're looking for the most pristine mixdown, you won't get it out of ableton.
And for the record I love ableton. I use it everyday and it rules. As far as I know, they're aware of the issue at least so hopefully it will be fixed at some point.

[Perej]

Thats the thing, you can get great mixes out of Ableton, so if you aren't particularly obsessed with how clean the signal sounds, then there is no reason not to mix entirely in Ableton, but unfortunately I am very OCD, so move everything to studio one

[Ghost of Muttley]

It is indeed a fact. A widely known one actually. If you research it you will find an abundance of legitimate information to as why ableton bounces aren't living up to the same sonic standards. That might not concern everyone, but if you're looking for the most pristine mixdown, you won't get it out of ableton.
And for the record I love ableton. I use it everyday and it rules. As far as I know, they're aware of the issue at least so hopefully it will be fixed at some point.

serious lulz at 'it's a fact, everyone knows it, looks it up!'
I have my own opinions about some of lives effects but the summing/bouncing is a non issue.

Every zero sum test i've seen/heard has completely cancelled out.

http://tarekith.com/sound-quality-live-versus-logic/

This is the closest I've seen anyone come to getting differences in the files and the last 3 bits of the null-test signal (the signal below -126dBFS) are in fact not bit for bit identical. isn't exactly definitive.

Hook up some links to this abundance on legitimate information that suggests otherwise?

[Gusto]

... there is quite obviously a subtle sonic difference in tunes produced on say, Logic, compared with Ableton.

Frankly, I don't believe you have the monitoring environment to notice the obvious subtle differences. Most people (and I'm not saying you specifically) come up with this bullshit because they put a Fruity Maximizer (or another DAW's equivalent all-in-one 'make me sound good to retards' plugin) on the master bus and can't find the equivalent in Ableton and claim it sounds worst.
Most people on this forum are not producing music interesting enough to be concerned with any slight differences in a sound engine. If you prefer dumping it into Logic because a more traditional mixer interface is more familiar to you, then fine whatever. Other people can't be bothered with the inconvenience. But you shouldn't do it because you've convinced yourself, or let other people on forums convince you, that the reason your music is not in the charts is because of Ableton's sound engine is crappy.

[SaveMidnight]

I are mad at Ableton because I am bad at other DAW?

Your grammar is terrible. Even for the internet.

[Perej]

... there is quite obviously a subtle sonic difference in tunes produced on say, Logic, compared with Ableton.

Frankly, I don't believe you have the monitoring environment to notice the obvious subtle differences.

are u in my room right now?

[Sinergy]

there is shit being pulled out of asses left and right

[AxeD]

What would you recommend? The next popular ones are FL, Reason and Logic. The first two are quirky, and the third is only available on Mac. Maybe Reaper, being so inexpensive, but MIDI and audio channels are the same.

Somebody did already mentioned that Ableton 9 will be 64bit.

And what's different about routing in Ableton? You still decide where sound is coming from and going to.

Looking back after having used every major daw except Reaper, I'd recommend Logic Pro.

Though, it depends on what you'll be doing. I have Pro Tools too, but I'm just recording in that. Now I wouldn't use
Logic or Live for that

[Gusto]

... there is quite obviously a subtle sonic difference in tunes produced on say, Logic, compared with Ableton.

Frankly, I don't believe you have the monitoring environment to notice the obvious subtle differences.

are u in my room right now?

Of course I'm not. I just hope that at the very least someone entering this thread that hasn't made their own mind up can recognise that you're just a guy on the internet, suggesting personal anecdotes are facts with nothing to suggest that you might know what you're talking about.

Most importantly; in a world (and in particular, a genre) where people are sampling off youtube, re-using the same presets and sample packs over and over and are just generally offering very little in the way of creativity, the summing engine of the DAW is the least of anyone's concern.

[joegrizzly]

All DAWs essentially do the same thing, so why would you need to use more than one?

plenty of situations.

--ableton is a great creative environment. load a million things into a rack, assign macro's, and tweak away. doing that in logic would require you to build a big PiTA in the environment, maybe even keep track of arcane midi info... ableton's just better at that.

--I'm extremely fast w/ key commands, etc in logic. I get stems for a remix project in and want to change the tempo. I could flex-time each stem, take a few hours to get everything to line up and sound right-- and still wind up w/ a startingpoint where my audio sounds worse than it would in ableton. warp and export in ableton, work in logic.

--a buddy of mine is a PT whiz but loves the airwindows plugs and a bunch of channel strips he's created w/ logic's internal instruments. create sounds in logic, export and mix in PT.

--working on a theater piece in which i need to be really malleable with tempos, routings, pitches, etc but based on patches and sounds i built ages ago in logic. export from logic, perform in ableton. go back and do tweaks and different versions of sounds in logic, keep ableton updated as a big sample bank of previously-created sounds and different variations and routings of them.

could i do most of the ableton/logic stuff in mainstage? Probably... but do i have time to learn a new DAW? not at all.

Thats exactly my point. why bother learning every single DAW out there, your just cramming your brain with technical stuff when you should just learn what you have and write music...

[Artie_Fufkin]

Looking back after having used every major daw except Reaper

which ones are you considering major? just curious

[Kit Fysto]

It is indeed a fact. A widely known one actually. If you research it you will find an abundance of legitimate information to as why ableton bounces aren't living up to the same sonic standards. That might not concern everyone, but if you're looking for the most pristine mixdown, you won't get it out of ableton.
And for the record I love ableton. I use it everyday and it rules. As far as I know, they're aware of the issue at least so hopefully it will be fixed at some point.

serious lulz at 'it's a fact, everyone knows it, looks it up!'
I have my own opinions about some of lives effects but the summing/bouncing is a non issue.

Every zero sum test i've seen/heard has completely cancelled out.

http://tarekith.com/sound-quality-live-versus-logic/

This is the closest I've seen anyone come to getting differences in the files and the last 3 bits of the null-test signal (the signal below -126dBFS) are in fact not bit for bit identical. isn't exactly definitive.

Hook up some links to this abundance on legitimate information that suggests otherwise?

I should have specified it is not a summing issue. I'm aware of all the tests. The summing is the same in all DAW's however problems do arise because of things like PDC and sample rate conversion. There's a lot of informative threads on abletons forums about these issues. They tend to occur in high track count CPU intensive sessions from my experience. There are so many threads of people at each others throats about this issue. I think if you're unsatisfied with your mix downs and achieve better results mixing in a different daw and don't mind the extra work, then more power to you. I mean at the end of the day who gives a shit, it's not like it's effecting anyone else's life but your own anyway.

[Perej]

... there is quite obviously a subtle sonic difference in tunes produced on say, Logic, compared with Ableton.

Frankly, I don't believe you have the monitoring environment to notice the obvious subtle differences.

are u in my room right now?

Of course I'm not. I just hope that at the very least someone entering this thread that hasn't made their own mind up can recognise that you're just a guy on the internet, suggesting personal anecdotes are facts with nothing to suggest that you might know what you're talking about.

Most importantly; in a world (and in particular, a genre) where people are sampling off youtube, re-using the same presets and sample packs over and over and are just generally offering very little in the way of creativity, the summing engine of the DAW is the least of anyone's concern.

You can check the Ableton forums about midi delay compensation & timing issues, as well as sample rate conversion as Kit Fysto has mentioned. It's all there, the devs have acknowledged it, so I'm right. People get irritated because they've invested loads of time in Ableton and don't want to admit their mixes still aren't as good as they'd like.

[RmoniK]

Honestly, i find myself getting more and more annoyed at ableton for little things every single day, but no DAW is perfect. Ableton is the closest i've found to perfection for me. Although i have some others to test.

[jorge]

You can check the Ableton forums about midi delay compensation & timing issues, as well as sample rate conversion as Kit Fysto has mentioned. It's all there, the devs have acknowledged it, so I'm right. People get irritated because they've invested loads of time in Ableton and don't want to admit their mixes still aren't as good as they'd like.

Ive read those threads and your right there does seem to be problems with those areas. However the threads also give some quite good advice on how to minimise the trouble from these problems.

The delay compensation is only a problem with high-latency plugins and very quick automation. And if you convert all of your samples to the same rate outside of ableton there's no problem with abletons converters because it wont use them.

I dont understand how starting in ableton and moving to another DAW would improve this either. Any mismatched sample rates would still be converted by ableton when transfering to another program and you would have to not use any plugins or quick automation in ableton in order to reduce the delay compensation problems.


Have you got any tunes online? im interested to hear them

also Im pretty sure Objekt said in the Q&A that his first two 12's were done entirely in ableton and theres not much out there that sounds as good as those two IMO

[Perej]

You can check the Ableton forums about midi delay compensation & timing issues, as well as sample rate conversion as Kit Fysto has mentioned. It's all there, the devs have acknowledged it, so I'm right. People get irritated because they've invested loads of time in Ableton and don't want to admit their mixes still aren't as good as they'd like.

Ive read those threads and your right there does seem to be problems with those areas. However the threads also give some quite good advice on how to minimise the trouble from these problems.

The delay compensation is only a problem with high-latency plugins and very quick automation. And if you convert all of your samples to the same rate outside of ableton there's no problem with abletons converters because it wont use them.

I dont understand how starting in ableton and moving to another DAW would improve this either. Any mismatched sample rates would still be converted by ableton when transfering to another program and you would have to not use any plugins or quick automation in ableton in order to reduce the delay compensation problems.


Have you got any tunes online? im interested to hear them

also Im pretty sure Objekt said in the Q&A that his first two 12's were done entirely in ableton and theres not much out there that sounds as good as those two IMO

I used to have loads of stuff on soundcloud but in the last few months I started getting really bored of this kind of music so stopped entirely, only recently started again but haven't got any further than a 30 second loop so far.

There is nothing wrong with making tunes in Ableton and mixing them entirely in Ableton.... let that be stated.
BUT...
MOST people will get a better result mixing them in cubase / logic / S1 / PT, I'm not going to argue about this because it's too long winded. You can do the test yourself. Open up one of your tunes in Ableton and mix it down in Ableton and export it. THEN open it again and rewire it to Logic and mix it in that, then export it.... (obviously to the best of your ability). If you tell me it doesn't sound better with the latter, you are a liar.

As stated 1000000 times by people all over the internet, there are reasons why you will never see Ableton as the main hub in a professional studio.

[Perej]

Also bear in mind that Objekt layers everything multiple times and is more clued up than 99% of people when it comes to the mix down. He also works for NI so is a statistical outlier when you compare what he does with Ableton to what most people do with it.

[Gusto]

Also bear in mind that Objekt layers everything multiple times and is more clued up than 99% of people when it comes to the mix down. He also works for NI so is a statistical outlier when you compare what he does with Ableton to what most people do with it.

So you can get great, professional mixes out of Ableton if you're good enough or it's something intrinsic to Ableton that means you'll always be second rate? Make up your mind. The fact that Ableton is not used in professional studios is absolutely no reason not to use it in a home studio. It was designed for the prosumer not the professional. The differences between a professional studio and your bedroom studio are so massive that choosing ProTools over Ableton because it's industry standard won't make a lick of difference. The fact that PT is industry standard is more down to historical and political reasons than technical ones these days.

Doing a mix in Logic and then comparing it to the same bedroom producer (you're suggesting we try this ourselves) doing a mix in Ableton is not even close to an acceptable scientific experiment.

I agree that PDC is a problem. And seeing as there is not going to be a fix in the near future, if it is going to affect your production, then by all means don't use Ableton. But everything else you say is anecdotal. You actually sound like those people that say things like; 'Vaccinations cause autism, I'm not going to post links because there's thousands of sources on the internet that you can google'. Of course what you're saying isn't nearly as destructive, but newbies reading this thread could still assume you're a local expert and take your word as good enough, but it's not.

I couldn't care less who does or doesn't use Ableton. I don't need to validate my decision to use it. This is about posting unsubstantiated claims as facts and tossing them off with '100000's of people say so', 'try it yourself'.

[AxeD]

Looking back after having used every major daw except Reaper

which ones are you considering major? just curious

Live, Reason, Logic, Pro Tools, Studio One, Cubase and Reaper.

Studios using Pro Tools is because of a technical reason. Other daws are not as stable when recording multiple tracks.
If you think about the average recording of a drumkit.. that'll take about 5-7 tracks already.
Recording is an entirely different ballgame, you can't know that shit if you're not in studios.
Unless you have several mics/pre-amps, and bands coming over to your house every week

Pro Tools started in audio, a lot of other daws started in midi.

(Live is a great daw)