Post your unpopular opinions.

[butter_man]

@wolf. Every business has overheads. Farming equipment, parts for assembly, staff to create product and so on. Each have to make the physical product each time its sold. Dmz sell vinyl which has a quality that cant be replicated digitally and run nights which draw in revenue. I wouldnt personally torrent there stuff either, but there business model means they can make money despite piracy. Thats innovation, something people will be forced to do with piracy. Ive read that the majority of music piracy is done by music lovers not ur i love beiber this week whoevers pop next week. These are the people more likely to spend money going to a show to see you perform so in this way piracy is cost free advertisement.

[jorge]

Or maybe you could just pay for music that's going to get you hours of pleasure through out your life and provoke thoughts and feeling and memories rather than spending money on over priced shitty designer clothes, drugs and starbucks.

Exactly, what you spend your money on always has an impact on the world and its important to be aware of that.

In the film 'examined life' peter singer talks about how it would be fair to assume that if you were wearing a pair of very expensive shoes and saw a child drowning in a pond you would happily ruin your shoes to save the childs life. Most people however would not choose to spend the money that it cost to buy the shoes on actually saving the lives of children, which it could probably do a few times over. Of course money isn't the only factor but it is important to think about the impact of what you choose to spend or not spend your money on because there is always very real effects from it even if you cant see them.

plenty of people are happy to give 20 pounds for 1.6 of weed or 4 for a cappuchino but wont give money to the people who create the music which, for me at least, has given some of the greatest pleasures and experiences in my life.

[butter_man]

There are more ways to make money in the music industry than the saale of recorded music for example gigs. And if those shoes could be replicated cost free millions of times at the touch of a button then itd be an equal comparison (remembering shoes need designers, materials and a workforce creating each pair)

[jorge]

Think you missed my point.

I was saying that what you choose to spend your money on makes quite a large difference in the world even on an individual level. The choice to not spend money on tunes you download but on other frivolous things, which we have all done, is a moral choice and no matter how you try to swing it with this infinite replication idea (which is kind of meaningless) if no-ones buying the tunes it doesn't matter how many digital copies you can make.

Yeah going to gigs is great but I think people should be able to make money from the music they make and record and it shouldn't just be reduced to an advertisement. Especially when you consider the amount of money spent on bullshit all the time

[garethom]

Music and film piracy isnt the same as stealing a physical product like an apple or a watch. Both the latter took a certain amount of labour to get each product to the shelves. Once recording /mastering has finished for music/film that product can then be duplicated infinite times for infinite gains. I know about overheads and the rest of the shenanigans that go with these industries but i'd feel the same about stealing an apple if it could be duplicated infinitely from one source.

While the digital file can be copied yeah it costs a lot to get something made in the first place. If no-one pays for it it'll die out

This. It's easy to think that piracy will just make the major labels die out, etc. but there's two problems with that way of thinking. I think it embeds an attitude not of theft, but almost laziness. Like if you've pirated everything you own, you're more likely to NEVER pay for tunes, no matter how much they need your support. I put out free releases with Night Tracks that still got put on pirate sites, just that attitude that funkysouls or rapidshare is where you get music from, not juno or bandcamp or whatever.

I run something that is right at the bottom level of labels. I've gotta fork out £154 of my own money soon to get something mastered. Fact is, I'm less likely to keep taking that risk (and just the time and effort it takes) if I'm not making it back and I'm seeing people pirate it or discuss where they can get a certain other release we've put out. Part of the reason why Night Tracks will be doing some physical only (CD/Cassette) releases soon, might sell less copies, but at least it's going to people that are willing to support us.

Yeah, there are gonna be people out there putting music out for free, but is it gonna be of a decent quality (talking mastering, presentation, etc.). Any label is gonna want at least costs back eventually.

I'm all for more indepence (artists putting out their own stuff, etc.) but I do think labels play a vital part too, as Wolf said.

[butter_man]

Think you missed my point.

I was saying that what you choose to spend your money on makes quite a large difference in the world even on an individual level. The choice to not spend money on tunes you download but on other frivolous things, which we have all done, is a moral choice and no matter how you try to swing it with this infinite replication idea (which is kind of meaningless) if no-ones buying the tunes it doesn't matter how many digital copies you can make.

Yeah going to gigs is great but I think people should be able to make money from the music they make and record and it shouldn't just be reduced to an advertisement. Especially when you consider the amount of money spent on bullshit all the time

I think your missing the point. Im not saying people shouldnt make money off there music. Just that replicate something millions of times cost free after the initial overheads can create massive revenue while people who make a physical product each time cannot operate this way.

What about people who can barely afford to live, should they be denied music? An apple is more important than a song no matter how good a song it is (you cant eat music if your starving) yet the music industry can grow much faster due to the quick turnover of its product (pressing copy file compared to waiting till harvest). The music industry is huge

[hifi]

why should i support a shit label, real talk. let u/em die out. pce

[Marcus]

why should i support a shit label, real talk. let u/em die out. pce

Don't download/ listen to what you don't like & support the music you like.
Simple.

[garethom]

why should i support a shit label, real talk. let u/em die out. pce

Don't think anyone's saying that, think the point is support the ones you do like and don't be surpised if people keep pirating shit that the label you like calls an end to things.

[butter_man]

Music and film piracy isnt the same as stealing a physical product like an apple or a watch. Both the latter took a certain amount of labour to get each product to the shelves. Once recording /mastering has finished for music/film that product can then be duplicated infinite times for infinite gains. I know about overheads and the rest of the shenanigans that go with these industries but i'd feel the same about stealing an apple if it could be duplicated infinitely from one source.

While the digital file can be copied yeah it costs a lot to get something made in the first place. If no-one pays for it it'll die out

This. It's easy to think that piracy will just make the major labels die out, etc. but there's two problems with that way of thinking. I think it embeds an attitude not of theft, but almost laziness. Like if you've pirated everything you own, you're more likely to NEVER pay for tunes, no matter how much they need your support. I put out free releases with Night Tracks that still got put on pirate sites, just that attitude that funkysouls or rapidshare is where you get music from, not juno or bandcamp or whatever.

I run something that is right at the bottom level of labels. I've gotta fork out £154 of my own money soon to get something mastered. Fact is, I'm less likely to keep taking that risk (and just the time and effort it takes) if I'm not making it back and I'm seeing people pirate it or discuss where they can get a certain other release we've put out. Part of the reason why Night Tracks will be doing some physical only (CD/Cassette) releases soon, might sell less copies, but at least it's going to people that are willing to support us.

Yeah, there are gonna be people out there putting music out for free, but is it gonna be of a decent quality (talking mastering, presentation, etc.). Any label is gonna want at least costs back eventually.

I'm all for more indepence (artists putting out their own stuff, etc.) but I do think labels play a vital part too, as Wolf said.

sad fact of life but all business ventures in any industry need a viable business plan especially if there going to be your only means of income. There are many small shops going out of business, should we be sympathetic to them all? Its a case of making itr work, Its not impossible, just producing a track may not be enough to cut it these days. Running nights is a way of getting your product out there. I have pirated music, yes, mostly off bands that are making a killing selling music and I justify it cos I am skint (yes, I am a scumbag) or music that has been out for a long period of time and the artists are either dead or living comfortably in a mansion. I buy music also, from either artists that music has a great impact on me or through lesser known artists that are trying to make there way through the lower part of the industry. Garethom, you have never said anything on here that I have thought was shit so when you put out music, and I like it (cos of shitty comp/fan problems streaming music is an issue so I havent got round to checking them out but I will) I will buy them. And if you do a gig and Im in the city its at at that time I will go see, paying an entrance fee and supporting more (or if you ever do a gig in north wales -pah! no tnuc with any sense comes here)i will attend and bring friends. I have spent tens of thousands of pounds supporting the music industry, when I was younger and working/working& living at home the majority of my money went on music, Ive been to hundreds of gigs and spend the majority of my time finding new music adn showing new music to people who I think will appreciate it, in turn creating more fans and more customers for gigs and music sales (this is not a justification just a truth.)

But the fact still remains, making a song (a combination of well worn chords to a variety of rhythms) can make someone a multi millionaire and the industry billions upon billions. does the money justify the effort, no. They work hard but so do apple farmers, doctors/nurses well anyone in most industries. they can do this by having an easier way of multiplying there product once recorded unlike the doctor or farmer, so do I give less of a fuck that beibers album is torrented than someone stealing an apple from a local farms market stall, yes! Im not saying you shoyuld all go broke and have your music stiolen, but the piracy problem will force musicians to make money in ways other than just the track itself (more gigs is a good thing, right) and the records companies will take a kicking, good! cos the oversexualised, shallow, vaccuous market that is creating false idea's of beauty and success to our children is not a good thing. and forced innovation is another good thing, either if your learning to master to a high calibre to compete with the majors or setting up a local scene starting a festival or a string of nights to get your product out there (not saying that this hasnt been done but more of this will make for a better world Im sure).

anyway rant over, Im off to pirate burials discography ten times over (for fun) and hand it out to homeless people. I kid, I kid

[garethom]

Yeah, don't wanna get into a debate about whether it's right or wrong, I've been involved in enough of them, was just giving a small label perspective on things!

[jorge]

tbh we're saying the same thing really then man. I dont think anyone here would have a go at you for pirating the music of artists who are long dead or who are already really rich. My point about the shoes was about how spending money in general is a moral decision so the infinite shoes thing was missing the point. I think supporting huge record companies and the like is generally quite immoral so there you go.

On the other hand I know a few musicians who make their living from music but can only do so by gigging constantly. This may seem great but it means they don't have enough time to write as much music and are always moving from one place to the other, not that great when you have a young family to feed and look after, not to mention the enviromental impact when all of your gigs are in far away countries. They should be rewarded for the music they make as well as their live performances. It seems like you would agree with this.

The infinite reproduction thing doesn't make a difference to most small labels it just means it takes less sales to break even which is a good thing. but if it only gets pirated then they may not even do that

[wolf89]

Music and film piracy isnt the same as stealing a physical product like an apple or a watch. Both the latter took a certain amount of labour to get each product to the shelves. Once recording /mastering has finished for music/film that product can then be duplicated infinite times for infinite gains. I know about overheads and the rest of the shenanigans that go with these industries but i'd feel the same about stealing an apple if it could be duplicated infinitely from one source.

While the digital file can be copied yeah it costs a lot to get something made in the first place. If no-one pays for it it'll die out

This. It's easy to think that piracy will just make the major labels die out, etc. but there's two problems with that way of thinking. I think it embeds an attitude not of theft, but almost laziness. Like if you've pirated everything you own, you're more likely to NEVER pay for tunes, no matter how much they need your support. I put out free releases with Night Tracks that still got put on pirate sites, just that attitude that funkysouls or rapidshare is where you get music from, not juno or bandcamp or whatever.

I run something that is right at the bottom level of labels. I've gotta fork out £154 of my own money soon to get something mastered. Fact is, I'm less likely to keep taking that risk (and just the time and effort it takes) if I'm not making it back and I'm seeing people pirate it or discuss where they can get a certain other release we've put out. Part of the reason why Night Tracks will be doing some physical only (CD/Cassette) releases soon, might sell less copies, but at least it's going to people that are willing to support us.

Yeah, there are gonna be people out there putting music out for free, but is it gonna be of a decent quality (talking mastering, presentation, etc.). Any label is gonna want at least costs back eventually.

I'm all for more indepence (artists putting out their own stuff, etc.) but I do think labels play a vital part too, as Wolf said.

sad fact of life but all business ventures in any industry need a viable business plan especially if there going to be your only means of income. There are many small shops going out of business, should we be sympathetic to them all? Its a case of making itr work, Its not impossible, just producing a track may not be enough to cut it these days. Running nights is a way of getting your product out there. I have pirated music, yes, mostly off bands that are making a killing selling music and I justify it cos I am skint (yes, I am a scumbag) or music that has been out for a long period of time and the artists are either dead or living comfortably in a mansion. I buy music also, from either artists that music has a great impact on me or through lesser known artists that are trying to make there way through the lower part of the industry. Garethom, you have never said anything on here that I have thought was shit so when you put out music, and I like it (cos of shitty comp/fan problems streaming music is an issue so I havent got round to checking them out but I will) I will buy them. And if you do a gig and Im in the city its at at that time I will go see, paying an entrance fee and supporting more (or if you ever do a gig in north wales -pah! no tnuc with any sense comes here)i will attend and bring friends. I have spent tens of thousands of pounds supporting the music industry, when I was younger and working/working& living at home the majority of my money went on music, Ive been to hundreds of gigs and spend the majority of my time finding new music adn showing new music to people who I think will appreciate it, in turn creating more fans and more customers for gigs and music sales (this is not a justification just a truth.)

But the fact still remains, making a song (a combination of well worn chords to a variety of rhythms) can make someone a multi millionaire and the industry billions upon billions. does the money justify the effort, no. They work hard but so do apple farmers, doctors/nurses well anyone in most industries. they can do this by having an easier way of multiplying there product once recorded unlike the doctor or farmer, so do I give less of a fuck that beibers album is torrented than someone stealing an apple from a local farms market stall, yes! Im not saying you shoyuld all go broke and have your music stiolen, but the piracy problem will force musicians to make money in ways other than just the track itself (more gigs is a good thing, right) and the records companies will take a kicking, good! cos the oversexualised, shallow, vaccuous market that is creating false idea's of beauty and success to our children is not a good thing. and forced innovation is another good thing, either if your learning to master to a high calibre to compete with the majors or setting up a local scene starting a festival or a string of nights to get your product out there (not saying that this hasnt been done but more of this will make for a better world Im sure).

anyway rant over, Im off to pirate burials discography ten times over (for fun) and hand it out to homeless people. I kid, I kid

You're acting like the entire music industry is some souless entity where everyone makes billions.

Independent music isn't like that. It's a struggle to maintain for most and then for a few becomes something that's sustainable. Unless you're Skrillex or somethinig it's not comparable to pirating beiber. You're saying that you want to give labels a good kicking? That again only applies for the bieber pushers of the world. I think honestly you're just making excuses for why you don't buy music.

Not every musicians gigs or djs too and shouldn't' be forced to get by doing what they want to. If you're making music for example that can't be played live or isn't dancefloor friendly how are you supposed to support the costs of doing it other than sinking all your money from another job into it which may not be possible for most people to do? Also you need the time to make the music which is less likely to happen if you're working your arse off to afford to master your tune which no-one then buys.

[butter_man]

I just bought my first new pair of shoes in 5 years. Pimpin! I suppose its naive to think that creating art for arts sake and just having people hearing your music is a priviledge should be enough to justify piracy ( amongst low income enthusiasts, thats why Im incredibly thankful for mixes and free giveaways), especially when mouths need feeding and babies need clothing. A chance to tour the globe though doing what you do sounds fuckin sweet, even though I know that it would be incredibly tiring, road weary.

I get you about the money spent thing now.

[wolf89]

Also touring isn't just some magical instant money making thing. I remember reading in Terorrizer magazine Kylesa saying they were so desperate to tour they would do so even though they didn't make enough money to eat and would steal leftover food out of the bins out the back of restaurants to eat. Like they put so much work into it hoping it would take off. Kind of makes me feel alright to buy their cds knowing that I'm helping keeping their dream of a sustainable life of music going.

[butter_man]

@wolf. ur making a lot of assumptions about me. I do buy music, just not major label, I dont believe the way you think I do about independent and major label artists. I understand artists struggle, refer to my point about businesses closing, just cos someones an artist making music doesnt mean there entitled to live comfortably off it though, there attempting to live a dream, like many other business ventures they might fail, this should force em to sink or swim get innovative with the way they market themselves and make good contacts globally for a start to push there product. I and friends have put on/up a lot of touring bands who grace our coastline, payment, place to crash, food, smoke/drink. So I'm not in the dark about struggling independent artists, just don't think that everyone who sets on this journey is gonna make wether there hearts in it and fully believes in themselves or not. Im a realist, life has made me this way.

And yet again for musicians that only produce on pc and therefore lack means to perform live.. well theres dj'ing ur tracks or getting a copy of live and a controller and trying to performn the tracks live (if the effects on the tracks arent to complex to replicate live) or learn to play a certian aspect of the track, get a drum kit and mic it up with the effects parameters lined up for when it recieves a certain hit (not sure how technically correct that sounds but Im sure you get the drift), In other words INNOVATE. Which is what Im saying people on independent are forced to do. I wish everyone whoever painted a beautiful picture or created a great song could live there life of their art but they cant unless they greoup together and INNOVATE. Like putting on a night to support artists a's music will get work for person B trynna sell his music. The best mode;l of this is the DIY punk scene good peepsd touring and selling merch and records internationally. Maybe other scenes should follow.

[garethom]

just don't think that everyone who sets on this journey is gonna make wether there hearts in it and fully believes in themselves or not. Im a realist, life has made me this way.

This is totally true. Do believe there are far too many people expecting to make a living off it. I'm not one of them, I just do it for a bit of fun and to make a few £ as a bonus, all I want is for those that enjoy the tunes and the label to support it.

[Lye_Form]

Yeah, there are gonna be people out there putting music out for free, but is it gonna be of a decent quality (talking mastering, presentation, etc.). Any label is gonna want at least costs back eventually..

Mastering costs are a bitch.

Thinking of buying some outboard gear & go on a mastering course(s) to take it all in-house & sell it as a service to raise money for physical releases.

[garethom]

Yeah, there are gonna be people out there putting music out for free, but is it gonna be of a decent quality (talking mastering, presentation, etc.). Any label is gonna want at least costs back eventually..

Mastering costs are a bitch.

Thinking of buying some outboard gear & go on a mastering course(s) to take it all in-house & sell it as a service to raise money for physical releases.

Pretty much what we're gonna be doing with cassette duplication.

[kaili]

Gummo is an amazing film more 'normal' and true to reality than most films posted in the movies thread.

ye its real good
when i saw kryptic minds at subtone in leeds the other week there was this guy who looked exactly like the main character from gummo with the weird face nd he just stood at the bk of the room the whole time
was so weird lmfao