Reasons we need feminism

[lovelydivot]

This is kind of an interesting issue...
and I had a talk a while ago with one of my friends about
- navigating sexuality at that age..

He said he had a really difficult time with it...
because his first experience was with a girl who was extremely troubled...

and so in a way he was enabling a troubled girl to behave in a troubled fashion...
But only he didn't know it and ended up getting sort of confused too - because it was all confusing.


Everyone is feeling pressure and guilt and confusion around the issue at that age - and beyond.


So yeah - It's good to talk about things. But this is the mature me speaking.

At that age I was just rolling straight through life and acting like a dickhead I'm sure.

[d-T-r]

Feminism is a tremendously underestimated force, viewed in the present context primarily as a woman's concern. The understanding has not yet percolated throughout society that the advancement of women is a program vitally connected to the survival of human beings as a species. The reason for this is simply that institutions take on the character of the atoms which compose them, and what we are most menaced by in the twentieth century are dehumanized institutions. If women played a major role in policy formation and execution on the part of these institutions, I think they would have a far more benign and ecologically sensitive kind of character. So I see feminism not as a kind of war between the sexes or any of these stereotypic images, but as actually a kind of effort to shift the ratios of our emphasis that is expressed through our institutions.

It isn't even really about women, it's about femininity -- injecting femininity into our decision-making process and our social policy. Naturally the most obvious way to do this is to bring women into the process, but that isn't necessarily how it should be done.

- Terrence Mckenna

[magma]

What the FUCK is going on in this thread?

Feminism is still incredibly relevant - women are still confronted with fewer opportunities than men and a pretty clear glass-ceiling on pay even when they share opportunities with their male counterparts.

If you think we've lost the need for feminism, you might be a misogynist tnuc and not realise it. You should get tested by telling your views to your Mum and seeing if she beats the living SHIT out of you.

Be careful out there. It's all too easy to become a massive tnuc.

[Laszlo]

women are still confronted with fewer opportunities than men and a pretty clear glass-ceiling on pay even when they share opportunities with their male counterparts.

But this is the opposite of what Genevieve said. Who am I to believe?
Either of you got any sources or is it all just supposition and conjecture?

[magma]

women are still confronted with fewer opportunities than men and a pretty clear glass-ceiling on pay even when they share opportunities with their male counterparts.

But this is the opposite of what Genevieve said. Who am I to believe?
Either of you got any sources or is it all just supposition and conjecture?

Men still earn around 10% more than women (that's for the same job titles/load, whether full time or part time work), it seems we value a woman's effort at around 90% the value of a man's.

It's been creeping in the right direction since the mid 20th century, but to suggest the situation no longer needs pushing seems a bit optimistic.

Of course, the pay gap isn't necessarily formally structured like that - it may be that girls aren't raised to argue over wages as much as boys or that they're more likely to use all their leave - whatever the cause, it seems to point to society still preparing men and women for different existences. Men are taught to get money first and foremost. We learn skills as kids that we can apply to our careers later whether it's being nerdy about computers, having football trials or learning to plaster a wall. Everything else comes second - get a job and provide for yourself and anyone else that needs it. Women are told they should read their magazines, learn the trends, go shopping, get those smokey eyes perfected and THEN think about work... but don't get too committed to it, because you'll probably want to go and have babies if you want to be "normal"...

Feminism's main focus should be on the way girls are raised, IMvHO. What media is pushed at them compared to boys, what clubs they're encouraged to join etc.

[Genevieve]

women are still confronted with fewer opportunities than men and a pretty clear glass-ceiling on pay even when they share opportunities with their male counterparts.

But this is the opposite of what Genevieve said. Who am I to believe?
Either of you got any sources or is it all just supposition and conjecture?

I'll give you this lollipop if you believe me.

Men work more hours, work more dangerous jobs and work in more well paying fields in general. If you compare hours worked in the same field with the same experience of both men and women, the salaries are equal.

In America, urban, single, childless women make even make more money than men do.

If you think we've lost the need for feminism, you might be a misogynist tnuc and not realise it.

Well, if you believe we need feminism, then you're sexist against men!

And a izan sympathizer.

And you hate muslims.

AND I bet you litter too!

[magma]

Men work more hours, work more dangerous jobs and work in more well paying fields in general. If you compare hours worked in the same field with the same experience of both men and women, the salaries are equal.

And why aren't all those things down to the way boys and girls are raised? i.e. Why is it not a feminist issue?

You can say that salaries are different because we do different jobs, fair enough - why do we still do different jobs? There are incredibly few industries left that require massive biceps, women are allowed to be in the army... how is this not an issue about raising children?

We're still pretty lopsided on "glamourous" industries too. Where are all the female sportspeople? As a society, why do we struggle to show even the scantest interest in women's sport? Why is it seen as a lesser pursuit so that girls spend their teenage weekends learning how to shop instead of joining a sports club?

Why do so few women end up in IT (looks around, can't see a single woman) when it should be an utterly gender-neutral industry?

It's clearly not right yet.

[Genevieve]

It's not a 'feminist issue', it's a societal issue. The feminist lense is that of a patriarchy. A patriarchy wouldn't force all men to live up to almost unreachable standards of power and productivity that only very few men can attain, where their value to society is decided by how much wealth they produce. A patriarchy would recognize female-to-male rape. A patriarchy would be just as comfortable sending women off to die in wars as men. And in a patriarchy, making fun of male genital mutilation on live tv would not happen. And in a patriarchy that hates and is brutal against women, most violent crimes and robberies would not be against men, nor would men get disappropriately harsh legal sentences compared to women for the same crimes.

I'm against brutally enforced gender roles and pressuring men OR women to live up to ludicrous standards. Feminism tackles this issue through misinformation and a bias based on the lie that society is made by men, for men and is based on a hatred of men. And feminism is as anti-female as it is anti-male. If that woman doesn't live up to the feminist's standard.

I don't want 'gender equality'. I don't feel strongly about me being a 'man' and batting for the 'man team'. There are some women that I relate to, personally, more than some men, because we happen to think more similarly. I'm a dude cuz I have a Y chromosome, that's it. I want individual equality. Feminism does not and the very basis of feminism is 'you hate women unless you give women a leg up in society'.

I don't think men as a gender are necessarily OPPRESSED however. But we don't get the same benefits women do. We're expected to take more individual responsibility and take more effort for the same benefits.

[magma]

Hmm, I think you're assuming that "feminism" hasn't changed since the 60s. We're largely saying the same things need to happen, just using a different title for them.

Yes, it's a societal issue. I believe it will be progressed by people who title themselves "feminists", however appropriately.

Perhaps I can head this futile exchange of inconsequential semantics with you off a little earlier this time. Somehow, I doubt it though.

[Genevieve]

Feminism hasn't changed since the '60s, some of the mainstream 'lingo' is different, but the basic theories feminism is based on feminist theory like rape culture and the patriarchy. And feminism still views women as the 'oppressed' class and men as the 'oppressor', no matter how you cut it.

Humanism and feminism aren't the same thing. I agree that people have come to think of 'feminism' as an 'equality for everyone' type of thing and that's how it tries to pass itself off NOW, but then there would be no need to call it 'feminism'. You can't call yourself a christian if you're not a follower of christ and have faith in his divinity as god's only son sent to die for our sins, even if you like the 'love and don't judge each other stuff' he said. Similarly, you can't call yourself a feminist if you don't believe in basic feminist theory and just like the 'well, I dig the equality part'.

[magma]

Got it, you're just trying to argue for argument's sake.

Again.

Bye, Genevieve.

[Genevieve]

Bye dude, come back when you have a more informed opinion on what you want to argue about and your best argument isn't "if you disagree, you hate women"

[Laszlo]

:mjpopcorngif:

Na, I had a longer reply typed out but my computer crashed so forgive me if this seems a little curt.

I've seen stats (seen, not necessarily believe) that suggest the pay gap has closed and (if the trends continue) women will soon, on average, be paid more than men.

The examples you gave of what boys and girls learn from a young age both seem appropriate for skills in the workplace - read magazines = learn to process information. Learn trends = well, learning trends (as in trends, not like, trendy type trends). Smoky eyes = learn to have a professional appearance.
Ok i'm reaching on that last one but you get my drift - boys and girls are taught and learn differently. I just don't see the point that girls are being woefully left behind as nothing but sperm receptacles destined to churn out babies.

I don't deny that sexism exists in the workplace and that there is some way to go before we reach utopia, I just, personally, don't see the need for an emphasis on feminism when it could just as well be lumped in with civil right or human rights.

Either way, i'm totally open to bribery and that lollipop looks peng.

[garethom]

We're still pretty lopsided on "glamourous" industries too. Where are all the female sportspeople? As a society, why do we struggle to show even the scantest interest in women's sport? Why is it seen as a lesser pursuit so that girls spend their teenage weekends learning how to shop instead of joining a sports club?

Knew this thread would get a lot more interesting if you showed up Magma.

I can't comment on any other things, probs get sucked into commenting with personal bias, etc. but for me, and others I know the sport thing is about the physical edge. Biology has given men bodies more capable of lifting more, running faster, jumping further, hitting harder, swinging harder. That's all for me. I wanna see athletes at the absolute top of the game, because IMO, it makes sport more intense, edge-of-the-seat stuff. No amount of feminism will be able to change what our bodies do. It's like, would you rather watch an american football game played by finely-tuned, incredibly strong and fast athletes, or a bunch of malnourised basement-dwellers.

Participation is a different matter all together, where my previous point doesn't count. I mean, I like to play sports, but I doubt anybody wants to watch me. Sports should be encouraged a lot more than they already are across BOTH genders, but definitely should try and encourage it more amongst girls and break the negative stigma that comes from participation/interest in sports.

[Laszlo]

I hadn't read any of the posts after the lollipop one so some of what I said about has been covered.

From my extremely limited knowledge on the subject this

feminism still views women as the 'oppressed' class and men as the 'oppressor', no matter how you cut it.

Humanism and feminism aren't the same thing. I agree that people have come to think of 'feminism' as an 'equality for everyone' type of thing and that's how it tries to pass itself off NOW, but then there would be no need to call it 'feminism'.

seems to ring true. It just galls me that I am somehow considered a tnuc because I was born with a dick - it's a bit like original sin.

Magma, I admit my own ignorance on the subject and I am not trying to argue for the sake of it. If you have the time and inclination could you answer the above quote?

[benjam]

Feminism hasn't changed since the '60s, some of the mainstream 'lingo' is different, but the basic theories feminism is based on feminist theory like rape culture and the patriarchy. And feminism still views women as the 'oppressed' class and men as the 'oppressor', no matter how you cut it.

Humanism and feminism aren't the same thing. I agree that people have come to think of 'feminism' as an 'equality for everyone' type of thing and that's how it tries to pass itself off NOW, but then there would be no need to call it 'feminism'. You can't call yourself a christian if you're not a follower of christ and have faith in his divinity as god's only son sent to die for our sins, even if you like the 'love and don't judge each other stuff' he said. Similarly, you can't call yourself a feminist if you don't believe in basic feminist theory and just like the 'well, I dig the equality part'.

The lingo is actually 'oppressed and privileged' not 'oppressed and oppressor', and patriarchy does exist....

[Genevieve]

Women are judged by their looks, men are judged by their capabilities and power (or in short their capability to produce wealth). Both are bad in this day and age. But feminists only argue from the direction of how women are judged by their appearance, and no one tries to consider what type of pressure it puts on men to PERFORM (not look) perfectly when they see athletes getting all the praise, money, and girls. Performing in ways that hardly any man can compete with. Even if it's not in physical strength, but maybe in the market or anywhere.

Both sexes are equally disadvantaged based on what we evolved to bring to the table in tribal societies some 200 thousand years ago. So the problem doesn't lie with 'why doesn't society care for women in sports', but with 'why, in this day and age, do we put the pressures Homo erectus had to endure on Homo sapiens?'

So the troubling thing about movements that stick up for a certain group and what never makes them about 'equality' is that they only focus on one particular bit. And with feminism's political muscle, we only ever hear about male-on-female rape or the focus is entirely shifted on SEXUAL HARRASSMENT (in the workplace or anywhere for that matter), particularly, again from men to women. But 'sexual harrassment' isn't the only thing that's bad, it's HARASSMENT of any kind that's bad. A guy who gets bullied by his superiors can experience similar traumas. If you shift the focus on 'sexual harrassment' you're playing favorites.

And while feminism is liberating women's sexuality, then where is feminism fighting for the men who feel ashamed of their sexuality and try to hide it because they feel co-responsible for the rapes commited by other men? Which was caused by the feminist movement in the first place by painting every man as a potential sexual predator?

[hubb]

Great Mckenna quote.

http://www.mediafire.com/?8af06mjaq7pxh9l
spam, not entirely unrelated.

[benjam]

So the troubling thing about movements that stick up for a certain group and what never makes them about 'equality' is that they only focus on one particular bit. And with feminism's political muscle, we only ever hear about male-on-female rape or the focus is entirely shifted on SEXUAL HARRASSMENT (in the workplace or anywhere for that matter), particularly, again from men to women. But 'sexual harrassment' isn't the only thing that's bad, it's HARASSMENT of any kind that's bad. A guy who gets bullied by his superiors can experience similar traumas. If you shift the focus on 'sexual harrassment' you're playing favorites.

Yes but harassment and sexual harassment are two separate actions with different effects and implications, just like violence and domestic violence are related but separate issues.

[collige]

Feminism hasn't changed since the '60s, some of the mainstream 'lingo' is different, but the basic theories feminism is based on feminist theory like rape culture and the patriarchy. And feminism still views women as the 'oppressed' class and men as the 'oppressor', no matter how you cut it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_wave_feminism