Reasons we need feminism

[deadly_habit]

Here's the thing even today you have a gap in feminism, you have the anti-sex feminists who are the most vocal (and where you get the joke terms feminazi from) and the sexual liberation feminists, which are more akin to the 60s feminists.
Take for example some of the everyone is equal, but women are more equal in some cases of the law or even the Violence Against Women Act.
The classic "you don't hit a woman" even if you know she decked you in the face in public multiple times.
Or as I said the "Violence Against Women Act" which covers men and children as well. Why not just call it the Violence Against People Act since we want equality.
Also the pay gap as has been states is being bridged, but also a result of the industries and positions men take vs women.
A female engineer or scientist is going to make just as much as a male engineer or scientist, but you don't see as many women pursuing those industries as men.
Take for example physical characteristics as well with women wanting front line infantry positions in the military.
At the moment their APFT test requirements are much less demanding than males.
Now it's reasonable to say that if they want the same job as males they should be able to perform to the same standards, especially with it being a high stress and physically demanding job yes?

[hubb]

There aren't a whole lot of female Ian Mckellans, Kevin Spaceys, Frank Oceans or Elton Johns.
So even when it comes to being homosexual and out in the open, there's a difference.

Its absolute proof that society is rigged towards men when our society doesn't automatically contain a single lesbian counterpart to either of these ^dudes, because what they do and are known for is hardly incredibly difficult or groundbreaking.

[deadly_habit]

There aren't a whole lot of female Ian Mckellans, Kevin Spaceys, Frank Oceans or Elton Johns.
So even when it comes to being homosexual and out in the open, there's a difference.

Its absolute proof that society is rigged towards men when our society doesn't automatically contain a single lesbian counterpart to either of these ^dudes, because what they do and are known for is hardly incredibly difficult or groundbreaking.

Ellen DeGeneres

[Kochari]

Of course, the pay gap isn't necessarily formally structured like that - it may be that girls aren't raised to argue over wages as much as boys or that they're more likely to use all their leave - whatever the cause, it seems to point to society still preparing men and women for different existences. Men are taught to get money first and foremost. We learn skills as kids that we can apply to our careers later whether it's being nerdy about computers, having football trials or learning to plaster a wall. Everything else comes second - get a job and provide for yourself and anyone else that needs it. Women are told they should read their magazines, learn the trends, go shopping, get those smokey eyes perfected and THEN think about work... but don't get too committed to it, because you'll probably want to go and have babies if you want to be "normal"...

Well I can't comment on what it's like for females, but I was never raised to "get money first and foremost", and nor did I "learn skills as kids we can apply to our careers later". Anyway, I wanna be a professor of metaphysics, how in the fuck do you teach that your kid
Surely the point you're raising is about bad parenting (or at least restrictive parenting) in general, rather than being gender specific?

But yeah, I totally agree everyone should be equal an ting. I like this:

I don't feel strongly about me being a 'man' and batting for the 'man team'. There are some women that I relate to, personally, more than some men, because we happen to think more similarly. I'm a dude cuz I have a Y chromosome, that's it. I want individual equality.

LOVE EVERYONE YEAH

[nousd]

This is probably a subject too multi-faceted and riven by semantics to discuss on here.
My initial comment may seem to dismiss feminism as passe
but it was more about how many young women seem to think that they are liberated and have control
and their male peers needing to be aware that this is far from true for both sexes

Gene's reaction is provocative

Society isn't becoming more hostile to women. Men are becoming less accepting of feminist bullshit and things have been getting more culturally hostile for everyone. In this day and age, 'oppression' is a lot more complicated than a lot of feminists would have you believe. It works on an individual basis and includes lifestyle choice, religion, financial status, mental health and a number of other things.

Not long ago, it would have been unconscionable to express this view,
would've been excoriated by screams of sexism
because feminism had secured society's agreement to a monopoly of being oppressed for women.
Even if of a minority or poor, it was the primacy of your being female that laid you prone to victimization.
Has that changed?
Have women really gained equality or even superiority?
Is it OK now for men to disagree with feminist claims without being exiled to the misogynist Elba?

Obviously not amongst most of the world's population, given the subordinate roles and lack of opportunities women have.
To their credit, some professed feminists are addressing these inequities
(along with many males such as Muhammad Yunus).
In a wealthy, progressive country such as Australia, you have women leaders who are, both in self-interest and with an eye to the (majority) female vote, still pushing hard on "womens' issues" such as childcare, wage equality for caring professions, health, disability insurance etc.
yes alright I'm not fuckn stupid: they are issues that concern us all
but their biggest impact is on women

Some males, not having been around for the C20th transition into liberation, might be justified in thinking that their specific issues aren't being given equal weight.
Hence:

But society isn't structured in a way that it benefits men.

Still highly debateable, even in western countries.
And even if true, does that necessarily mean that it is structured to advantage women?

...when men finally got the vote, they were expected to give their life for their country, while this wasn't asked of women.

It is increasingly so now. Some women are champing at the bit to be given the opportunity.

...boys are getting progressively worse grades at school while girls are getting better ones ...college degree women are on the rise while there are more male dropouts. Getting women to learn has come at the expense of men.

Well duh...just as, historically (and still predominantly worldwide) men's education had priority over that of women.
Males adjusting to female equality takes some personal commitment to change...
That's why young males should embrace the lessons of feminism,
not take their rights for granted
identify their specific needs,
network and cooperate,
lobby and gain the necessary power to advance their own interests and liberation from archaic roles
while, hopefully, having more regard for their mothers'/sisters'/lovers'/partners'/daughters' well-being.

...women ...earn the same (as men) right now, except women tend to work less hours and usually also less demanding jobs

spurious...think unpaid work, think of the qualia of lower-paid jobs

this is why more than 70% of all work related deaths happen to men...

We can choose less dangerous jobs.
We can act to make these jobs safer.
We can facilitate women doing these jobs.

...40% of all stimulus money during the recession to female dominated occupation fields... while 80% of all job losses occurred in men dominated fields

Well, why have men not lobbied harder?
Done the grant applications?
Too busy? Not a male activity?
Change.

It's not a matriarchy, but we live in a society that serves and protects women.

And that's a good thing which some women don't experience and some don't appreciate.

Most actual sexism against them is rooted in benevolence, not hatred.

Big call. Certainly a male viewpoint.

It's not justifiable, but to claim that sexism is symptomatic of a society structured for the well being of men is a lie.

I don't get the "it's not justified" qualification
and I'm not sure what you're calling a lie.

Thanks Gene. Helped me to examine my beliefs.

[hubb]

Ellen

Yeah true! and it's a good example, especially considering I couldn't come up with anyone.
BUT... in that example you have a job (talkshow host) that purposefully relates to or targets a certain demograhic, so If you were a little unfair and argumentative you could argue that she gets the rating she does because she is lesbian and not despite being one. I know she had the show before coming out though.

[deadly_habit]

She got the job because she was a successful comedian who had a sitcom before her talk show.

[hubb]

Yeah I kno - point still stands though.

Black when Oprah was white no one was watching!

[deadly_habit]

Where the hell did Oprah come from anyways? She's just been like this unstoppable force for ages and I can't recall her background before that besides a couple movie roles.
But yeah you have some other high profile lesbians like Melissa Etheridge, or even ones from the past like Gertrude Stein.

[nousd]

black when Oprah was white
no one was watching

[hubb]

I think the network she was on was small at the time and grew along with her, so it wasn't taking huge financial risks making the show. Also it must have been a cheap format back when they weren't buying jets in every ep.

But yeah it can't just be that she gave out that astonishing pee in the colour purple.

Maybe she's a robot.

[lovelydivot]

Right off the bat - Geneiveve does not argue like a woman in the slightest bit...

And I really shouldn't begin with that potential bait line
- because I actually want to be heard and not steamrolled by my own misplaced call for his forceful retort..

I find it interesting to mention sports - because in my opinion the whole concept of sport is masculine...
Not saying woman can't or shouldn't do it...
Not saying they don't enjoy it...
But competition to me isn't feminine - co-operation and sharing would be...

competive sailing would exist - but only because it wouldn't be about beating someone
- it would be about how far can your team push a boat.
And we'd all stand back and marvel at the success of the boats.

the goal would be to have an entire pod of bad ass boats breaching together at top speeds like dolphins...
How gay is that!!!right!!How fast can we all go around the world

On the idea of feminizing institution and industry - This is huge...
We are fully engaged in a "world" that has been created for and by men - and it does systematically repress...
I'm thinking here for a minute - I was going to say in systematically represses women but I'm not -
Keep reading and see the side bar***at the end

exp. Driving an 18 wheeler to deliver cross country...

wouldn't be happening (at least not in it's current form) if women had a signifigent contribution.

the machines would be far more finessed from an engineering standpoint
...simultaneously lower to the ground and higher at the shoulder

AND Big Trucking - probably wouldn't be happening in any signifigent amount at all -

- My guess is that trains and smaller shuttle types of local mini-train/underground trams would be in place...
towns/business centers would be designed around a local mini-monorail tram delivery system..
and it would be considered infrastructure - so it would be a high governmental agency...

None of this trying to fit a huge clumsy vehicle down a retro-sized downtown
- smashing bicyclists with their wide right hand turns.

Tooling would have to be far more advanced - electrically and hydrolically - which would be expensive
All of it in fact - would require lots more engineering and thought and money to get it fem-ready

Which is probably the reason it and we are not there - yet? We are still in an age brute'

***So - The system is not actively repressing women - the repression is just a symptom of
a practically underdeveloped - everything.

[lovelydivot]

And trust me when I say - convincing men to go the extra way to include us with advanced engineering
is just more work for everyone
and they'd rather just lug a heavy wrench right now - and have us forget that shit and just tend dinner.

so it's laziness - we're all just trying to be lazy.

ie the benevolent kind of self-imposed repression

[hubb]

So - The system is not actively repressing - the repression is just a symptom of
a practically underdeveloped - everything.

Although there is truth to that, there's still active opression.

When you are in a situation where even capitalism can't succedd in properly shaping us into preferable little peer groups that conjure up all kinds of economy in their little pots by ourselves in an almost bauhausian logical and mutually beneficial parasite ting , you can safely assume some oppression is going on. It's not just some male bureaukracy not understanding, its individuals with influence actively hating and overlooking certain aspects of what we have available politically, morally and individually on earff.

We can begin by switching bike types between the genders so aliens wont automatically assume we are idiots in relation to protecting our goods.

[Genevieve]

I don't have time to answer everything right now. But I'll just say that my argument that society's sexism against women, or what is viewed as "oppression" (the vote, etc), is mostly the benevolent kind is actually something I've learned from a woman and I researched it myself before coming to the same conclusion after innitially having been very critical of it. "You're a man therefore your argument is less valid" pfft, yeah, sexism. It's the same with abortion, some women claim that men can't have an opinion on it because they can't get pregnant. But the other side of the argument is that men can perhaps be less emotionally involved and more objective BECAUSE they can't get pregnant (not implying that all women, are strictly unobjective about it or all men objective, obviously).

And I personally find it sexist that there's supposed to be such a thing as "the female perspective". Gender effects all of our lives, but how we deal with it is different per person. You can't paint all women with one brush just because they have a set of tits. They're as capable of individual thoughts as men are and actually MOST of my sources for my arguments or who made me look up anti-feminism in the first place ARE female (and not conservative, or traditionalist in the least bit)

I'll be back later. I hope.

[lovelydivot]

Well - I can say this...

I absolutely would not trust a random cross section of women - especially American women...
To be in charge of anything right now...


So many women - seem so rahtid mentally to me - currently

- Saying this AS A WOMAN!!


and that's a whole other issue...really dilluted - dysfunctional woman.


They are like border collies who can't work - They chew half the house apart...
But I don't even want to talk about welfare work - to encourage mental stimulation and critical thinking.

Because invariabley - I am ALWAYS the one that ends up with this work - I told you I'm on strike.

[benjam]

We can begin by switching bike types between the genders so aliens wont automatically assume we are idiots in relation to protecting our goods.

[Lucifa]

There aren't a whole lot of female Ian Mckellans, Kevin Spaceys, Frank Oceans or Elton Johns.
So even when it comes to being homosexual and out in the open, there's a difference.

Its absolute proof that society is rigged towards men when our society doesn't automatically contain a single lesbian counterpart to either of these ^dudes, because what they do and are known for is hardly incredibly difficult or groundbreaking.

Two of the most frequent female presenters at the BBC are lesbian. one even having a terrible sitcom manufactured around the all the hilarious situations being a lesbian entails. so, bollocks, basically.

[Lucifa]

im all for gender equality and all that, but its the bitter attitude toward all men (rather than those with power) that most feminists spout that really winds me up. Look at this comment in the Guardian today re. naked protesters. (406 upvotes)

"They're sneering at the male sex drive. They'd have a go at it with a chainsaw if they had a chance. What they're flaunting is theirs, not the leering grasping, blankly complicit paparazzi's and news editors whose hunger for BMWs and iPhones they're exploiting, and not yours.

They're sneering at men's sad determination to turn their bodies into wankfodder. They're telling them to their face that they're sad, wankerly complicit hangers-on of the patriarchal order.

"Like what you see?" They're saying "That's your affair - either pull it out and have a go in front of your computer, or kidnap us and rape us in a forest. Either way you're helping us prove our point. Wankers."

Men shouldn't have sex drives? What a dried up tnuc.

Inequality is a class issue first and foremost, not a gender one.

[Jizz]

"Like what you see?" They're saying "That's your affair - either pull it out and have a go in front of your computer, or kidnap us and rape us in a forest. Either way you're helping us prove our point. Wankers."

wow