Ghosts

[d-T-r]

Essentially it all boils down to whether or not you view Conciousness as a by product of the physical brain and nothing more, or if you think that conciousness has a potentially self-dependent nature that does not need a physical body to exist.

always enjoy reading your posts man, and love how you keep calm and just explain your view instead of rising to some of the other posts on here.


I think it also comes down to how you view evidence and knowledge. Alot of people on here seem to see science as untouchable and the only knowledge worth having, which is also how I saw things not too long ago. The thing is, the belief in a knowable and describable reality that can be discovered through empirical research is as much a belief as anything else and the findings it produces are only abstract narratives that we use to structure the world. Mathematics doesnt exist as a thing, it is a framework that draws a straight edge around a curved and dynamic reality . Of course it works very well in a lot of areas but its not the be all and end all. Intuitive knowledge can be just as important and the two often intersect, check out the Tao of Physics by fritjof capra if you have the time.

I havent experience ghosts/spirits myself but I know very trustworthy and down to earth people who have had multiple experiences of this kind and I believe them. How could anyone scientifically 'prove' a experience they have had, what kind of tools do we have to measure these things? Imo its ridiculous to try and apply scientific method to everything in the world, or at least very unsatisfactory. Some things you have to work out for yourself and just because one person believes one thing and you believe another that doesnt make them stupid.

Glad you enjoy reading. It's sometimes a test not rising to the baitings

And Mason, i whole heartedly support the scientific method just so you know. Sometimes something can exist but cannot yet be measured or quantified.

Just because something cannot be quantified and measured and repeated now, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Apply scientific thought to knowledge hundreds of years ago and you see what i mean by that.

I am fully aware half of this stuff cannot be proved, but that doesnt rule out the potential for there being some truth behind it all and the potential that in the future, certain parts of certain theories can get some more weight behind them.

I speak from personal experience, but of course, to you , my personal experience could be condescended as hippy hallucination 100% of the time. It's cool, i don't care to prove my experiences because i know i can't.

All i can do again, is point to maybe looking in to the astral plane, out of body experiences and shamanism (typically amazonian) to get a jist on the potential of Spirits existing and the dynamic behind it all.
See it as a scientific experiment Mason. Put the potential value of direct experience to the test.

If not , here's another one of your favourite hippy anecdotes

"Modern Materialism has been a destructive ideological force hidden in the Trojan horse of Orthodox science. Scientific orthodoxy and the materialist world view propose the natural world and conciousness as the result of a series of accidents and conciousness is a by-product of the brain.

Altered states of conciousness are consider pathological and primary focus is placed on manipulations of the phenomenal world. An attitude of materialism shuts off a persons intuition by which the spiritual world is apprehended , because spirituality is labelled as a delusional belief or dangerous hallucination

By confining it's self to what can be measured with instruments, the materialist point of view becomes a metaphysical flatland allowing no subjective insight in to why we are here.

Humanity has developed to it's current state of complex rationality because of the refinement of language. Considering conciousness as an evolutionary force may imply that there are higher states of conciousness beyond reason, Trans-rational states. According to the transpersonal vision, conciousness is central to understanding the nature of reality , and not merely a 'by-product of brain activity' as proposed by the materialist-impricisist paradigm.

If language was the necessary mind-tool needed to develop reasoning intelligence, what mind tool is to develop beyond reason?

The conceptual mind constructs a coded world of meaning by assigning names (language/definition) to things and comparing them, the everyday functioning of civilizations is completely dependant on the powers of the conceptual mind and it's coded world. The downside is that creating a world of isolated distinct objects, the conceptual mind creates a mental trap of limits and opposites, distinguishing our isolated self from everything else. The conceptual insight mind creates a seductively logical prison of worlds that only spiritual insight (trans-rational/transcendental insight) can cure." - Alex grey

[dooshbhag]

^ Natural standpoint to take. Especially for someone having not experienced their presence.

Worth reading peoples accounts of astral traveling/projection and also experiences when connecting to spirits related to ayawaska.

Default perception is that these are hallucinations at best and just a projected aspect of the person's psyche, but i find it interesting when different cultures approaches and accounts of the paranormal and parapsychology kind of cross over. Same go's for the variations and similarities you find when comparing those who have had near death and out of body experiences....many similarities but often decorated and influenced by the cultural background of the person.

Even Carl Jung started to wonder if his experiences could be pigeon holed in to his own veiws of the soul or if he was experiencing genuine apparitions of beings outside of his own self.

It's not black and white anyway and for now it's virtually impossible to provide conclusive evidence for or against.

You are completely damaged man. fuck.

[d-T-r]

[jorge]

I havent experience ghosts/spirits myself but I know very trustworthy and down to earth people who have had multiple experiences of this kind and I believe them. How could anyone scientifically 'prove' a experience they have had, what kind of tools do we have to measure these things? Imo its ridiculous to try and apply scientific method to everything in the world, or at least very unsatisfactory. Some things you have to work out for yourself and just because one person believes one thing and you believe another that doesnt make them stupid.

sure they may be trustworthy people themselves, but human beings and our perceptions are inherently flawed and imperfect. it boils down to occam's razor, and the fact that such phenomenon are much more easily and consistently explained as the human brain subjectively interpreting natural occurrences as something supernatural, rather than something supernatural that defies established and extensively proven knowledge.

i don't think it makes them stupid, but i do think it's foolish and ignorant to think that the subjective, anecdotal experiences of a single human mind are reliable enough to draw such a massive conclusion from. and that's the point of science (and why it works so well) - it aims to remove human subjectivity from the matter.

What is existence outside subjective experience? and how could us as subjective humans know anything about it?

Quantum physics showed us that its impossible to remove subjectivity from ' the matter', the subject is more important than ever. You also havent replied to my point that the belief in an objective knowable reality is as much a belief as anything else and cannot be proven empirically.

[Pedro Sánchez]

I havent experience ghosts/spirits myself but I know very trustworthy and down to earth people who have had multiple experiences of this kind and I believe them. How could anyone scientifically 'prove' a experience they have had, what kind of tools do we have to measure these things? Imo its ridiculous to try and apply scientific method to everything in the world, or at least very unsatisfactory. Some things you have to work out for yourself and just because one person believes one thing and you believe another that doesnt make them stupid.

sure they may be trustworthy people themselves, but human beings and our perceptions are inherently flawed and imperfect. it boils down to occam's razor, and the fact that such phenomenon are much more easily and consistently explained as the human brain subjectively interpreting natural occurrences as something supernatural, rather than something supernatural that defies established and extensively proven knowledge.

i don't think it makes them stupid, but i do think it's foolish and ignorant to think that the subjective, anecdotal experiences of a single human mind are reliable enough to draw such a massive conclusion from. and that's the point of science (and why it works so well) - it aims to remove human subjectivity from the matter.

What is existence outside subjective experience? and how could us as subjective humans know anything about it?

Quantum physics showed us that its impossible to remove subjectivity from ' the matter', the subject is more important than ever. You also havent replied to my point that the belief in an objective knowable reality is as much a belief as anything else and cannot be proven empirically.

You just justified the case for scientific frameworks mate.

[jorge]

I havent experience ghosts/spirits myself but I know very trustworthy and down to earth people who have had multiple experiences of this kind and I believe them. How could anyone scientifically 'prove' a experience they have had, what kind of tools do we have to measure these things? Imo its ridiculous to try and apply scientific method to everything in the world, or at least very unsatisfactory. Some things you have to work out for yourself and just because one person believes one thing and you believe another that doesnt make them stupid.

sure they may be trustworthy people themselves, but human beings and our perceptions are inherently flawed and imperfect. it boils down to occam's razor, and the fact that such phenomenon are much more easily and consistently explained as the human brain subjectively interpreting natural occurrences as something supernatural, rather than something supernatural that defies established and extensively proven knowledge.

i don't think it makes them stupid, but i do think it's foolish and ignorant to think that the subjective, anecdotal experiences of a single human mind are reliable enough to draw such a massive conclusion from. and that's the point of science (and why it works so well) - it aims to remove human subjectivity from the matter.

What is existence outside subjective experience? and how could us as subjective humans know anything about it?

Quantum physics showed us that its impossible to remove subjectivity from ' the matter', the subject is more important than ever. You also havent replied to my point that the belief in an objective knowable reality is as much a belief as anything else and cannot be proven empirically.

You just justified the case for scientific frameworks mate.

go on...?

Im all for scientific frameworks, but not as the only source of truth. And especially not as some kind of infallible method that actually IS truth and not just an abstract narrative.

All im saying is that science is based on beliefs that cannot be proven scientifically and it is important to acknowledge that. Its also important to realise that science isnt truth itself and cannot give us the answers to many of the important questions

[garethom]

i remember there being a great thread about supernatural stuff happened to ninjas it was great had some good ass story about some football field / park ghost which was peng also other good stories cant be arsed to find it tho

pretty sure that was garethom, that was a goodun

Was me. Weren't a ghost though bro, it was a monster (I think).

[d-T-r]

scientific method = good.

Scientism = not good.

[nousd]

the only ghosts I've experienced were unreconciled souls
whereas daemons/jinns are out for wilful fulfillment thru harm.
Treat 'em with the same compassion/wariness
as a bullied clown who's picked up a knife
and, with a little help from your guides, you'll be OK imo.

[Terpit]

science is gay lol

[Pedro Sánchez]

All im saying is that science is based on beliefs that cannot be proven scientifically and it is important to acknowledge that.

Science is about creating a base model on which newer research and understanding can be applied and changed at any stage providing proof of the existing models no longer stand up. It's about finding an absolute or as close to from the relative. Nature works on these principles we just put names and figures to them. This idea that Science is trying to be arrogant is amazing, like we should accept the unknown, the reason you are typing this stuff is owed to science.

[topmo3]

i remember there being a great thread about supernatural stuff happened to ninjas it was great had some good ass story about some football field / park ghost which was peng also other good stories cant be arsed to find it tho

pretty sure that was garethom, that was a goodun

Was me. Weren't a ghost though bro, it was a monster (I think).

tell it again plz

[jorge]

All im saying is that science is based on beliefs that cannot be proven scientifically and it is important to acknowledge that.

Science is about creating a base model on which newer research and understanding can be applied and changed at any stage providing proof of the existing models no longer stand up. It's about finding an absolute or as close to from the relative. Nature works on these principles we just put names and figures to them. This idea that Science is trying to be arrogant is amazing, like we should accept the unknown, the reason you are typing this stuff is owed to science.

You didnt explain your previous point at all and you're ignoring most of what I have said.

Science is based on the idea that there is a positive, knowable world out there that can be discovered and understood through scientific method and reasoning. You say it is about finding an absolute from the relative, but there is no scientific proof that there is an absolute, how could there be? In fact as I mentioned earlier things like quantum physics show how important the relative is.

The scientific method works well for a lot of things but it is still based on a belief and most of the actual scientists I have met attest to this.

no-one said Science is being arrogant but some scientists certainly are.

[Pedro Sánchez]

All im saying is that science is based on beliefs that cannot be proven scientifically and it is important to acknowledge that.

Science is about creating a base model on which newer research and understanding can be applied and changed at any stage providing proof of the existing models no longer stand up. It's about finding an absolute or as close to from the relative. Nature works on these principles we just put names and figures to them. This idea that Science is trying to be arrogant is amazing, like we should accept the unknown, the reason you are typing this stuff is owed to science.

You didnt explain your previous point at all and you're ignoring most of what I have said.

Science is based on the idea that there is a positive, knowable world out there that can be discovered and understood through scientific method and reasoning. You say it is about finding an absolute from the relative, but there is no scientific proof that there is an absolute, how could there be? In fact as I mentioned earlier things like quantum physics show how important the relative is.

The scientific method works well for a lot of things but it is still based on a belief and most of the actual scientists I have met attest to this.

no-one said Science is being arrogant but some scientists certainly are.

The absolute is formulated from patterns that keep recurring again and again in nature, now we can assign them a value to this recurrence, that value is now an absolute, it's a point of reference based on our own collective understanding of the world around us.

[Phigure]

What is existence outside subjective experience? and how could us as subjective humans know anything about it?

existence itself isn't subjective experience. that's just the way we perceive it. our body has sensory organs that send information to the brain, and the brain interprets this information in various ways. if i take a hit of acid or a drink of ayahuasca and start seeing the walls move, that doesn't mean they're actually moving.

the scientific method is made to be independent of that. instead of relying on human judgement to say "this weighs 5 pounds" or "this water is 30 degrees", it relies on instruments and devices that get repeatable and consistent data. yeah, you could (i dont think you would/will, but i'll go for the preemptive strike anyways) make the rather absurd argument "but how do you know your brain isnt fucking with the number from the thermometer somewhere along the path from the eyes to the brain?" well, besides the fact that this matter of "human subjectivity" just doesn't work that way, if that were the case, then it's a bit odd that everyone happens reads the same measurements and that our scientific theories based on those measurements actually work.

Quantum physics showed us that its impossible to remove subjectivity from ' the matter', the subject is more important than ever

quantum mechanics does not "show that it is impossible to remove subjectivity". quantum mechanics really has nothing to do with subjectivity. the "problem" that exists is that, at least in its current state, quantum mechanics leaves a few holes in its description of certain phenomena. how you choose to explain and interpret these holes can be done in a few different ways, and depending on which interpretation you choose, you are forced to either give up locality (the idea that an object can only influence something immediately near it), determinism (that an action can only lead to one specific consequence), or that quantum mechanics is incomplete (that there is some "hidden" physical property/quantity, that if measurable, would account for the aforementioned phenomena). that doesn't mean nature itself is somehow or in any way subjective.

You also havent replied to my point that the belief in an objective knowable reality is as much a belief as anything else and cannot be proven empirically.

sure, you can't necessarily 100% empirically prove that there is in objective reality; for all i know, solipsism could be correct, and "reality" is just my mind feeding me false information. or maybe we're all just plugged into the matrix. but those ideas are inherently not falsifiable, so you might as well disregard them. it's the same as the example in that burden of proof video - i could claim that there's a werewalrus on pluto (that cant be measured) sending me telepathic messages. but it's absurd and lacks any sort of credence that makes it worthwhile to even consider.

Science is based on the idea that there is a positive, knowable world out there that can be discovered and understood through scientific method and reasoning. You say it is about finding an absolute from the relative, but there is no scientific proof that there is an absolute, how could there be? In fact as I mentioned earlier things like quantum physics show how important the relative is.

The scientific method works well for a lot of things but it is still based on a belief and most of the actual scientists I have met attest to this.

yes, science is based on the belief that there is a single objective "true" reality. but this completely ignores the fact that some beliefs are more justified than others, and that's an immensely important point. like i said, you can't necessarily explicitly disprove that we're just all plugged into the matrix, but that doesn't mean it's a valid or even remotely reasonable belief to hold. and although yes, you can't 100% prove the existence of an objective reality, there is a mountain of evidence (not even exclusively/necessarily empirical) supporting that claim. combine that with the lack of support for the alternatives...

[jaydot]

Lots of tl'dr's in this thread.

[garethom]

i remember there being a great thread about supernatural stuff happened to ninjas it was great had some good ass story about some football field / park ghost which was peng also other good stories cant be arsed to find it tho

pretty sure that was garethom, that was a goodun

Was me. Weren't a ghost though bro, it was a monster (I think).

tell it again plz

Weird Monster Thing:
Me and 2 friends had been Christmas shopping, come back from the city centre and get off the train. There's a massive park in between the train station and my house, but you can walk around it, but it's freezing, and quicker to get home to go through the park. It's dark, but we're just bowling through like badmen. About halfway through the park, we see what looks like somebody riding a bike, dressed all in white. As it gets closer, we see there is no bike, I can't really explain how it was moving, don't want to say gliding, but imagine somebody moving on a bike, then just take the bike away. It gets closer to us (it hasn't shown any sign it knows we're there BTW) and it passes this fenced off basketball court/5-a-side area, and with a reference point, can see this thing is about 8 foot tall(Probably sounds like I'm exaggerating, but trust me on this one) and it has proper long arms held out in front of it (at first why we thought it was somebody on a bike), plus it is all white/dressed all in white. We decide to dip then, my one mate agreed with me, it was defo a monster, my other mate still to this day says it isn't, but offers no explanation to what it is. Creepy enough, but the story continues.

Me and my mate (the one that agreed it was a monster) were at the pub, and we got talking about the monster, and how we should go and look for it again (we were pretty tipsy, so was more just pissing around than being serious) so we walk to the same park as before, just expecting to walk through and see nothing. We get about 200 metres in to the park when we see something in the distance crouch down. ALL WHITE MOTHER FUCKER. We stand there staring this thing down, I'd say it's about 100/150 metres away. Then it stands up, moves closer, crouches back down. I think both of us didn't really believe this was happening, then it got up, moved closer and crouched back down, so we dip again.

This is still not the end. At the pub a month or so later, with a completely unrelated mate, haven't seen him in months, we start talking about weird shit we've seen, I'm just about to tell him about the monster, he pipes up with a story. He was playing football with his dad in lit up area of a park near his dad's house (I'd say about 4/5 miles from the original park) when in the distance he sees some guy dressed all in white, and he thought he was really close to them. Then the thing's path took it behind some goal posts at the end of the pitch, then my mate realised it was behind the goalposts, and was still taller than them, puts it about 7/8 foot tall.

Get home that night, a completely separate mate tells a story on facebook, him and some of his mates had been pissing around in Sutton Park, (a MASSIVE park about 10/11 miles away from the original park) and for a long part of the night, something tall and all dressed in white kept following them at a distance, and crouching down behind things to watch them.

So in total, I've saw it twice, my friend Aron has seen it twice, my friend Ryan and his dad saw something very similar once, and my friend Tom and his friends have seen something very similar at least once.

Funny enough, just last night one of my friends claimed he saw the monster in a park that's about half a mile away from the original park, but he's a bit of a bullshitter, and he was also drunk, so not counting that as a Birmingham Park Monster™ sighting.

[DiegoSapiens]

^ Natural standpoint to take. Especially for someone having not experienced their presence.

Worth reading peoples accounts of astral traveling/projection and also experiences when connecting to spirits related to ayawaska.

i had some astral travelings experiences and i´ve been more that a year now training hard to have lucid dreams and it´s really amazing. Anyway when you have this spiritual experiences i think is probably caused by a similar substance to DMT that your brain produces as a way of auto defense like in experiences of closeness to death, but the sensations you experience are clearly non physical and non attached to our senses wich are the base of science (exempt mathematics) and specially physics so talking of this phenomena and science is completely useless, like measuring the quality of a tune in a scientific way...

[topmo3]

i remember there being a great thread about supernatural stuff happened to ninjas it was great had some good ass story about some football field / park ghost which was peng also other good stories cant be arsed to find it tho

pretty sure that was garethom, that was a goodun

Was me. Weren't a ghost though bro, it was a monster (I think).

tell it again plz

Weird Monster Thing:

Funny enough, just last night one of my friends claimed he saw the monster in a park that's about half a mile away from the original park, but he's a bit of a bullshitter, and he was also drunk, so not counting that as a Birmingham Park Monster™ sighting.

lol cheers mate it was all good as i remembered. it's kinda funny that i almost hope u're making that shit up cause the monster is so horrible.. like straight from my nightmres

[deadly_habit]

I believe in the supernatural, but I wouldn't call ghosts lost spirts. I love ghost movies though and "haunted spots"