George Zimmerman

[titchbit]

you're right - guns are a hobby in america. they're an american pastime, like baseball. and if baseballs killed 30,000 people every year, we'd most likely want to ban baseballs too. I could see why certain professions should be allowed to use guns (ie professional hunters, if that thing still even exists?), but hunting is not necessary for the average citizen because you can buy food at a supermarket. sport/hobby being more important than the lives of children???? that's what I find offensive about this argument.

it's all about the cost/benefit analysis. that's why I say I'm open to being pro-gun, but I've yet to hear a compelling argument. Sure, there are plenty of Americans that use guns safely. That's all fine and dandy, but there are still 30,000 lives lost every year that don't have to be lost, and I don't think the minimal amounts of pleasure one derives from going to the shooting range are worth those lives.

and it's very unlikely that criminals would start manufacturing guns. even if they did, law enforcement could focus on breaking up illegal gun factories instead of just cleaning up bullet hole wounds and conducting investigations after the fact.

[kidshuffle]

and it's very unlikely that criminals would start manufacturing guns. even if they did, law enforcement could focus on breaking up illegal gun factories instead of just cleaning up bullet hole wounds and conducting investigations after the fact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improvised_firearm
https://www.google.ca/search?q=home+mad ... 4AO_wYCoDQ

[deadly_habit]

Around 32k die from automobile accidents with 10k being drunk driving, should we ban cars and alcohol as well?
You do bring up a good point about law enforcement though, they don't actively patrol areas anymore or forge relations with communities where violence is a problem. They're just a reactionary force after shit has happened.
That's a major issue. People feel the need to police themselves, hence they get armed, and people who aren't qualified to own a firearm or responsible have them.

[titchbit]

No, I wouldn't ban driving. Like I said, it's a cost/benefit analysis, which is why I'm open to being pro-gun, but guns really don't do much (if any) good for society. Cars on the other hand have made quick travel to short and medium range distances possible, which has greatly advanced society. They do much more good than harm.

Alcohol on the other hand.... If there was ever a drug to ban, it would be alcohol. Worst one out there by far, especially when it comes to the ability to drive a car.

[deadly_habit]

Or people just start taking personal responsibility, legalize drugs and prostitution and treat them as social/health issues rather than criminal.
Historically prohibition of things always does more harm than good since there is always a demand, and where there is demand someone will supply it.

[titchbit]

^ I don't really buy into the whole "prohibition NEVER works" thing. Just because it didn't work for alcohol in one specific period of time doesn't mean it won't "work" with guns. The demand for guns is very different from the demand for alcohol. And by this logic, we might as well have no laws. Even if they will be broken in some cases, at least some of the guns and some of the murders will be prevented by them.

[deadly_habit]

But that also puts the ability to protect ourselves in the hands of the state, and well they don't have the best track record with putting the populations' well being first. Hell recent events support that.
I mean prohibition as a policy not the specific time period referring just to alcohol. Drugs and prostitution are great examples, both are prohibit in most states by all accounts with a couple exceptions, and both have an excessively thriving market in spite of this.

[titchbit]

Yeah but guns don't have the same demand as drugs and sex. People are much more willing to get a fine and probation for drugs or prostitution, things that are actually fun, than get a major felony and jail time for a couple of pieces of metal arranged into a gun. Prohibition would work much better with guns because there is less demand.

Not sure what you're trying to say about putting the means to protect ourselves into the hands of the state. I thought this whole thread was about how George Zimmerman should have stayed in his car and let the real cops (ie the state) take care of it.

[deadly_habit]

I mean that if you allow the state to be the only ones to have the means of protection, you damn well better fix the problems in that system beforehand with how they are a reactionary force and not preventative, corruption, abuse of power, racial profiling etc.
That and at the federal level things like this recent NSA scandal and things like CISPA, the Patriot Act etc.
Also if they are prohibited watch the demand skyrocket, just like when any legislation hinting at bans or restrictions happens sales of guns and ammo skyrockets.
You should be defensive of your person and property, not go actively patrolling and looking for trouble like a vigilante.

[collige]

Yeah but guns don't have the same demand as drugs and sex.

In the US there is. There are quite a number of people who take the term "from my cold dead hands" dead seriously.

[titchbit]

that number is way less than the number of people that have tried illegal drugs, which is over half the friggin country (well over 100 million people).

[deadly_habit]

Well after the last couple mass shootings gun stores were actually selling out of certain guns and ammo from people fearing they would start passing more legislation, so the demand is there.
Hell I live in a state with some of the most restrictive gun laws as well, most of them not based in common sense unfortunately though.

[titchbit]

Polls estimate that around 40% of "households" in America own guns. To turn that number into individual gun owners, the number of gun owners is probably somewhere between 10-30%, because an average household is 2-4 people and probably has on average 1-2 gun owners. That's a rough estimate, but it is still a fraction of the number of people who drink alcohol, which is around 70%.

Alcohol prohibition didn't work because one, everyone wanted to drink alcohol. Two, it was relatively easy to get away with using illegal alcohol. And three, the consequences for getting caught were not that bad, relatively speaking. On the other hand, owning an illegal gun is not really worth it to most people, especially because getting caught means jail time.

Keep in mind we're talking about the demand after it's made illegal. Most of those people that ran to the gun store after the shooting probably wouldn't be buying illegal guns off the streets from criminals.

[Vodun]

im not aware of what the inconsistent details are but i do think zimmerman made a mistake by not taking the stand.

i cant see how you can say that zimmerman was the aggressor and losing the upper hand when trayvon's only injury was the gunshot. it seems obvious, at least to me, that trayvon jumped on zimmerman and started pummeling him. this would mean that trayvon was on top of zimmerman, which is consistent with the gunshot wound expert's opinion.

Trayvon might have been on top of him, doesn't mean he started it Zimmerman could have just pushed him or whatever, leading Trayvon act in self defence. Who knows what actually happened.
Why do you think he didn't take the stand? If his story is true, what possible reason does he have to not defend himself?

Playing devils advocate here, I know that none of these two are 'innocent' people, but who is?

[deadly_habit]

And found not guilty.

[titchbit]

yep just got the alert on my phone was about to post it!

Casey Anthony pt. II. Here come the riots.

[ehbes]

its the right call imo, not enough for a conviction. doesnt mean the dude isnt a scumbag tho

[dotcurrency]

Florida is fucking up man lol.


What bothers me most about this case however, 4 years ago a Football player (American Football player that is) shot himself by accident in his leg and got 3 years in prison for unlawfully carrying a gun. (He had a license but it expired or something) And this man murders a kid and can go home after the case

[titchbit]

its the right call imo, not enough for a conviction. doesnt mean the dude isnt a scumbag tho

True, not enough for second degree murder, but manslaughter... I think they could have at least given him manslaughter.

[titchbit]

Florida is fucking up man lol.


What bothers me most about this case however, 4 years ago a Football player (American Football player that is) shot himself by accident in his leg and got 3 years in prison for unlawfully carrying a gun. (He had a license but it expired or something) And this man murders a kid and can go home after the case

you talking about plax?