Is there such a thing as 'cultural self-esteem'?

[Genevieve]

The cultures I am most aware of value certain ideals over others and identify with them very strongly. Like the Dutch pride themselves for being 'live and let live' and tolerant of people different from them. America claims to be about free marketism and the American dream.

But I sense a strong conflict with those core values. The Dutch claim to be rather tolerant of people different from them, outwardly, but they're some of the most judgmental people I've ever met and exceptionally unpermissive of out of the ordinary behavior. And while Americans are outwardly and strongly for capitalism, there's a lot of casual disdain all across the political spectrum, where most working or middle class people make a lot of offhand remarks about the 'rich' or feel personally offended when someone does something 'just for the money'. Germany too is really scared of ever returning to what it was under Hitler. There's a really present intense fear of that type of authoritarianism, but it's extremely totalitarian and restricts freedom of expression a lot more than its neighbouring countries do.

I might be wrong, but then.. if I'm not... what does this type of conflict do to the people living in that culture? Do they feel a shared shame for not living up to their culture's ideals?

[garethom]

Don't really have anything interesting to add, but I'm just posting so I can keep up with this thread.

Peace!

[hugh]

Interesting discussion, I would say from personal experience though that these traits tend to vary from person to person, and in particular cultural self esteem tends to be drawn upon more by those who fail to draw self esteem from other facets of their life and lifestyle. I'm not even sure I would use the phrase "cultural self esteem" as it is a bit of an oxymoron in the sense that culture is the result of many different people's work in many different fields. I would use a term like patriotism.
I don't really get where this is going though either, I don't really understand what you mean by shame from failing to live up to expectations. Are you saying that for example (this is a horrible stereotype but whatever) a young Indian man from a wealthy background who failed to get into Medical school should feel ashamed because that is the sort of thing that their culture expects of them? In that case, they probably would if that's what they dreamed of doing.
However, if you are saying that a person could feel shame because of an active choice they made to be different from the rest of the masses, then I can't quite follow your train of thought.

[garethom]

Interesting discussion, I would say from personal experience though that these traits tend to vary from person to person, and in particular cultural self esteem tends to be drawn upon more by those who fail to draw self esteem from other facets of their life and lifestyle.

Yes, this!

I do tend to find that people with a lot of interests in different fields tend to buy into large scale things less easily, whereas the people just happy to kick back seem to be the ones that latch onto the standard cultural values more.

[deadly_habit]

With regards to the American dream, I think it just becomes a matter of people becoming jaded with government policy and treatment of the various classes along with a bit of complacency as well.
At some point I think people get trapped in a cycle of debt and complacency that stops the upward mobility between classes.
I think people are more in love with the idea of the free market until there are monopolies and government favor, then they want a level playing field.
It also somewhat leads to predatory practices in people as well and rather than just doing the right or decent thing, thinking about the bottom line dollar wise which is hard for certain types of people.
Also some aspects of society regarding the workplace say certain jobs wanting a degree which for a lot of people means going into debt to attain, or the notion that somehow a degree gives a person real world experience or makes them the best candidate for a position also contributes.
Also I think the older you get you start realizing material possessions aren't the most important thing in the world, which kind of contradicts that whole American dream thing.
I wouldn't so much call it cultural self esteem as I would call it cultural societal pressure.
It often can be viewed as a distraction or excuse for underlying issues if you ask me.

[Genevieve]

Nah, clearly there are individual outliers who have core values that differ a lot from the norm. But we all know that Japan has a lot of cultural values that are distinctly different from those in America. And through selective processes, certain ideas gain more foothold in people's every day lives than others. And I think that a lot of those ideas are in stark contrast with how most of that society actually feels about things.

There are times where you can break it down to the individual, but also times where that doesn't work and when discussing differences between cultures they're better viewed in a cultural context. I'm rather different in all of my core values from my peers and I see a lot of other individuals, but I'm also rather aware of certain pervasive Dutch ideals that are different from German ones.

Like a Dutch person grows up with the knowledge that they're supposed to be super permissive of alternative lifestyles and that that's a positive thing. But they aren't, and their peers aren't, yet they claim they are. So there's this dichotomy between what society as a whole believes on one hand, but completely discards on the other. And I was wondering if large portions of society feel a sense of shame for not living up to those ideals. It's more abstract than the Indian who can't make it to med school. It's more about the socially libertarian who isn't socially libertarian (like the Dutch) or the German anti-authoritarian who is actually an authoritarian.

[Genevieve]

With regards to the American dream, I think it just becomes a matter of people becoming jaded with government policy and treatment of the various classes along with a bit of complacency as well.
At some point I think people get trapped in a cycle of debt and complacency that stops the upward mobility between classes.
I think people are more in love with the idea of the free market until there are monopolies and government favor, then they want a level playing field.
It also somewhat leads to predatory practices in people as well and rather than just doing the right or decent thing, thinking about the bottom line dollar wise which is hard for certain types of people.
Also some aspects of society regarding the workplace say certain jobs wanting a degree which for a lot of people means going into debt to attain, or the notion that somehow a degree gives a person real world experience or makes them the best candidate for a position also contributes.
Also I think the older you get you start realizing material possessions aren't the most important thing in the world, which kind of contradicts that whole American dream thing.
I wouldn't so much call it cultural self esteem as I would call it cultural societal pressure.
It often can be viewed as a distraction or excuse for underlying issues if you ask me.

Not really. I'm the most capitalist person I know but I'm also the least materialistic. I can't get myself to care much about material possessions. Free enterprise goes a loottttt deeper than that philosophically. The owning stuff is incidental.

This isn't just recent either, 'money doesn't buy you happiness' didn't just appear in American culture recently. People in advertising were never the most popular bunch, as far back as the 30s.

[SCope13]

And while Americans are outwardly and strongly for capitalism, there's a lot of casual disdain all across the political spectrum, where most working or middle class people make a lot of offhand remarks about the 'rich' or feel personally offended when someone does something 'just for the money'.

If only this was prevalent to the level you make it out to be. You're making it seem like the general populace is a bunch of commies in hiding, when in reality your average middle or working class citizen makes excuses all day for capitalism, the very system that keeps them down.


Relevant:

"Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” - John Steinbeck

[Jizz]

such people will find esteem in whatever they make their culture out to be tbh, regardless of whether the traits involved are authentic or not. they'll rarely see it as shameful

[deadly_habit]

With regards to the American dream, I think it just becomes a matter of people becoming jaded with government policy and treatment of the various classes along with a bit of complacency as well.
At some point I think people get trapped in a cycle of debt and complacency that stops the upward mobility between classes.
I think people are more in love with the idea of the free market until there are monopolies and government favor, then they want a level playing field.
It also somewhat leads to predatory practices in people as well and rather than just doing the right or decent thing, thinking about the bottom line dollar wise which is hard for certain types of people.
Also some aspects of society regarding the workplace say certain jobs wanting a degree which for a lot of people means going into debt to attain, or the notion that somehow a degree gives a person real world experience or makes them the best candidate for a position also contributes.
Also I think the older you get you start realizing material possessions aren't the most important thing in the world, which kind of contradicts that whole American dream thing.
I wouldn't so much call it cultural self esteem as I would call it cultural societal pressure.
It often can be viewed as a distraction or excuse for underlying issues if you ask me.

Not really. I'm the most capitalist person I know but I'm also the least materialistic. I can't get myself to care much about material possessions. Free enterprise goes a loottttt deeper than that philosophically. The owning stuff is incidental.

This isn't just recent either, 'money doesn't buy you happiness' didn't just appear in American culture recently. People in advertising were never the most popular bunch, as far back as the 30s.

Like I said I view a lot of these as government projection for an identity to the rest of the world to cover other underlying issues.
Kind of like the whole North Korea projecting itself with it's glorious leader and a paradise, but failing.
Other governments just seem to have better PR, but usually the populace buys into it due to indoctrination in some way shape or form from childhood.

[Genevieve]

If only this was prevalent to the level you make it out to be. You're making it seem like the general populace is a bunch of commies in hiding, when in reality your average middle or working class citizen makes excuses all day for capitalism, the very system that keeps them down.

Capitalism and socialism aren't just the 2 only systems in the world where the people are torn between. You can be critical of something without adhering to your society's version of the opposite.

It's not even capitalism itself that I'm talking about and people making excuses for whatever's going on is in exact accordance with what my thread is about. American's relationship to 'profit motives' is a lot more complicated than 'FUCK YEAH CAPITALISM'. Even if that relationship isn't exactly obvious in the more prevailing culture.

I've never heard people be more critical of of profit motives in their day to day lives as I have Americans anyway. Much more than any European. Way more offended that someone else is 'all about the money'.

[nousd]

Cultural self-esteem
is it but a dream?
A German hunish
only before one-ish?
Libertarian Holland...
don't make me lol &
the Seppos free market?
hippies said fark it.
imo,
as one typical minion,
humans, when big-bossed,
revolt against impost,
involving no shame
nor cultural blame.

[test_recordings]

French people love their culture, a source of confusion for many British people because they can't see why

[titchbit]

M8 you ever hear of social anomie? You would definitely be interested in that concept. Learned about it in college. Pretty close to what you're talking about. Your scope might be a little more specific but you should definitely read about it if you haven't already.

Durkheim hypothesized that suicide rates were higher in societies that have ill-defined social expectations for individuals, or in other words, societies that hold contradictory beliefs and values, which causes cognitive dissonance. He turned out to be right.

Although I'm a little confused on the meaning of the term "cultural self-esteem"....

[NickUndercover]

French people love their culture, a source of confusion for many British people because they can't see why

Maybe because they have (had) one of the richest and most prolific litteratures in the world ? I'm not into modern french litterature but there are just too many legendary french writers from the 18th to the 20th century. Not mentioning paintings, the golden 20s in Montmartre... Most french people come across as stunc but their culture is something you can't take back from them

[Genevieve]

M8 you ever hear of social anomie? You would definitely be interested in that concept. Learned about it in college. Pretty close to what you're talking about. Your scope might be a little more specific but you should definitely read about it if you haven't already.

Durkheim hypothesized that suicide rates were higher in societies that have ill-defined social expectations for individuals, or in other words, societies that hold contradictory beliefs and values, which causes cognitive dissonance. He turned out to be right.

Although I'm a little confused on the meaning of the term "cultural self-esteem"....

No that's really fucking close to what I was thinking about. What you're describing anyway! I will have a look, thanks :0

[mIrReN]

The cultures I am most aware of value certain ideals over others and identify with them very strongly. Like the Dutch pride themselves for being 'live and let live' and tolerant of people different from them. America claims to be about free marketism and the American dream.

Yes Geert, yes

[Genevieve]

The cultures I am most aware of value certain ideals over others and identify with them very strongly. Like the Dutch pride themselves for being 'live and let live' and tolerant of people different from them. America claims to be about free marketism and the American dream.

Yes Geert, yes

Yeah I was basically happy to see his party get so much support. Their politics are vanilla Dutch statism, so it wouldn't get worse. But I loved it that all of the Netherlands and the world would finally see what a racist and intolerant bunch we are out here.

[jorge]

Not much to add really, but after living in NL for a bit I definetly agree with your points. Doe normaal innit.

In what way is germany totalitarian/authoritarian btw? not disagreeing just unaware.

[titchbit]

M8 you ever hear of social anomie? You would definitely be interested in that concept. Learned about it in college. Pretty close to what you're talking about. Your scope might be a little more specific but you should definitely read about it if you haven't already.

Durkheim hypothesized that suicide rates were higher in societies that have ill-defined social expectations for individuals, or in other words, societies that hold contradictory beliefs and values, which causes cognitive dissonance. He turned out to be right.

Although I'm a little confused on the meaning of the term "cultural self-esteem"....

No that's really fucking close to what I was thinking about. What you're describing anyway! I will have a look, thanks :0

ye your a philosophizer m8. it's funny, many of the people I studied in school aren't really all that brilliant. I'm sure there were 1000s of others who had the same exact thoughts and theories but never bothered to put them into writing or their writings just never became famous. hell, I even thought of most of the things I learnt about before I learnt them (in certain subjects).