Why orchestra doesn't need mixing?

[AxeD]

Minimal mixing is done because they usually apply a classical recording method.
You'd want to recreate what it sounded like in that particular concert hall / church.
So the most important bit is the stereo pair (or Decca) near the conductor, but I bet a lot of engineers will
mic sections individually as well.

Also, as Mad EP pointed out, a well rehearsed orchestra with a good conductor will sound very tight anyway.
It's mainly just the classical way of recording, I mean they are not going to put a bunch of fx on and punch soloist in..
that just doesn't fit and it doesn't capture the actual performance as it is.

[Mad_EP]

Sorry SunkLo - I really rate 99.9% of your posts...

..but on this one, you are missing it a bit. I know where you are coming from, but you haven't quite got it. This is what I have done professionally in many capacities for decades... and I am telling you it has very little to do with the arrangement.


First of all - if it were arrangement over professional discipline (conductor and/or musicians), then there wouldn't be discrepancies in recordings of the same repertoire with varying levels of players. But the reality is, there is. I have worked with very, very beginner musicians and those who are the best in the world and everyone in between. It isn't the repertoire that determines the ease of mixing the recording - it is the players and the engineers.

For instance - one thing you probably don't realize... is that most (if not all) acoustic instruments have resonant frequencies that don't necessarily sound that out of place when sitting in a hall, but due to microphone frequency responses, etc, will totally blow WAY out of proportion when recorded. So there were times, when during particular French Horn solos (or whatever), the engineer would actually ride the fader a bit because particular notes would resonate uncharacteristically louder in a recording situation than ANY one actually heard in the hall live. Now that has nothing to do with Brahms or the arrangement - he wrote the piece 100 years before proper recordings and to everyone in the hall, it sounded great.

More proof that it is the players/engineers over the arrangement... is that the engineer isn't usually able to switch the recording set up mid-concert. In addition to a generic stereo pair, he had spot mics (sometimes on instrumental sections - ie woodwind, low strings, high strings, percussion, etc)... but the concerts would sometimes be music from 1650 followed by a piece written in 1997 followed by a piece written in 1851. Obviously there is very little that those three pieces would have in common with their arrangements. Also - contrary to your belief, some of the spot mics were mic'ed somewhat closely. Some were overheads, but others were close.


What I think you, and others... were trying to get at but not quite reaching is that classical music tends to want to also capture the sound of the room. Classical halls usually have good acoustics, and can have a sound and personality all of their own... and so that is also usually part of the reason the mix is painstakingly set up ahead of time, and not as much done in post... otherwise the recording loses the character of the room. Where this differs, for instance... is how I record myself playing cello for my tracks, or other artists that ask me to guest on their tracks, etc. My studio is acoustically pretty dead, and has almost NO character.... so that means all reverb/delay/resonance/etc needs to be added artificially. That is fine in these instances, because if I were to go to a hall with natural reverb, it might sound great in the hall, but not work for the aural space of whatever track it is being inserted into.

Finally - I seem to recall someone bringing up compression. While there might some exception somewhere by someone, I don't know any classical engineers recording classical repertoire that use ANY compression. One of the great elements of classical music is the dynamic range it has... to compress it would be to ruin the piece.

[SunkLo]

I'm not saying the players or the engineers don't play a part, but a well-composed and arranged song will make their jobs much easier. There's a lot more attention spent on part writing in the classical realm, and even modern songs being played would have to be arranged for orchestra in a suitable way. A composer/arranger who knows the instruments well, their qualities, their ranges, their place in the spectrum, the hall and the song, can write music that's already mixed on paper before a single note is played. It is assumed when writing that the music will be played by a very competent orchestra and hopefully recorded in a flattering way. But I don't think that's the crux of why or how it all fits together so well.

Give a punk rock kid a pencil, manuscript and an orchestra and get him to write music that spans that many instruments. Even recorded in the most optimal fashion and executed by the most highly skilled musicians, it's still gonna sound like utter trash and be a gargantuan pain in the ass to try to mix. The arrangement is the fountainhead of a good mix.

[Artie_Fufkin]

acoustic instruments have resonant frequencies that don't necessarily sound that out of place when sitting in a hall, but due to microphone frequency responses, etc, will totally blow WAY out of proportion when recorded. So there were times, when during particular French Horn solos (or whatever), the engineer would actually ride the fader a bit because particular notes would resonate uncharacteristically louder in a recording situation than ANY one actually heard in the hall live. Now that has nothing to do with Brahms or the arrangement - he wrote the piece 100 years before proper recordings and to everyone in the hall, it sounded great.

Good point.
If the player was really top notch, then the engineer wouldn't have to ride the fader though, right? Can they adjust their playing accordingly?

I guess if any of these factors are out of whack, they can ruin the recording, so maybe there's no hierarchy of importance? lol

[hutyluty]

Tbh orchestra recordings miss the poibt. A live orchestra is one of the best thiings ever and you should all go watch one if yoy hsve the oppportiunity fi

[AxeD]

acoustic instruments have resonant frequencies that don't necessarily sound that out of place when sitting in a hall, but due to microphone frequency responses, etc, will totally blow WAY out of proportion when recorded. So there were times, when during particular French Horn solos (or whatever), the engineer would actually ride the fader a bit because particular notes would resonate uncharacteristically louder in a recording situation than ANY one actually heard in the hall live. Now that has nothing to do with Brahms or the arrangement - he wrote the piece 100 years before proper recordings and to everyone in the hall, it sounded great.

Good point.
If the player was really top notch, then the engineer wouldn't have to ride the fader though, right? Can they adjust their playing accordingly?

I guess if any of these factors are out of whack, they can ruin the recording, so maybe there's no hierarchy of importance? lol

They can adjust their playing, but they don't hear what the engineer or conductor is hearing, an 'overview' of the whole
orchestra.
Like Mad EP said, there's also a difference between the ears in the audience and the mics. The only one getting an idea of what it would sound like on the cd is the engineer.

[misk]

i used to be in an orchestra and its mad how different it soudns from in the middle as it were, like i was sat at the left centre and basically all i could here were the timps behind me and the brass blasting out to my left while the violins and cellos were practically inaudible but then on a recording from the conductors stand it all balanced perfectly.

that's what the conductor is for basically, keeping the balance right, in rehearsal he (or she) will let people know when they are playing too loudly or quietly- basically if it sounds right- often at a concert venue like a church or w/e you'd have to switch it up because the acoustics were different, the conductor acting almost like the guy at a mixing desk. So basically it's because they work at it a lot, it doesn't just sound that good when they first play a piece of music. (plus all that stuff about natural panning, frequencies spread out through the instruments and stuff too)

yep! conductor = mix engineer

[PillowFight]

Instrument design, idiomatic composition, arrangement and acoustic design of concert halls means it sounds right live with no amplification .

I imagine a recording to be a pretty big task but mainly based in an understanding of how the orchestra works in a room. Has anyone here ever done it?

Recording full symphonic orchestra is a drag. It usually takes a ton of really obnoxious mic set ups, from the weirdest heights and angles, and tons of rehearsals beforehand (even for the better orchestras).

[NinjaEdit]

It wasn't creation, but evolution. The orchestra developed over time.

There's a reason there's so many of each instrument, especially strings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestra# ... _orchestra

[misk]

Instrument design, idiomatic composition, arrangement and acoustic design of concert halls means it sounds right live with no amplification .

I imagine a recording to be a pretty big task but mainly based in an understanding of how the orchestra works in a room. Has anyone here ever done it?

Recording full symphonic orchestra is a drag. It usually takes a ton of really obnoxious mic set ups, from the weirdest heights and angles, and tons of rehearsals beforehand (even for the better orchestras).

It's true! I've had REALLY good experience with an array of 5 hanging from above the stage - of course, the ones I had access to were Schoepps - I'm pretty sure you can't make things sound bad with them even if you try!

[slothrop]

well yeah but also orchestras sound pretty damn good live w/ no mics or any of that which is surely the point- not whether they sound good on cd or not

This.

I can imagine how recording an orchestra well would be a difficult and skilled job, but in reply to the original question about how an orchestra sounds balanced and doesn't have clashing frequencies or too much low end making it sound muddy or too little high end making it sound thin or any of that stuff that makes dubstep producers spend hours twiddling with EQs and tearing their hair out, the answer is clearly somewhere in the composition, the playing and the conducting and not the recording, because it all works live as well as on CD.

TBH I think in a really good performance it's all three. There's a lot of thought goes into how the parts fit together in a classical piece, and how you can even have two of the same instrument playing in and out of each other in the same range without it sounding like ass, and the effect of bringing in lower or higher parts in unison or in counterpoint or as background noise. But the conductor being able to judge the balance is crucial and so is the players being accurate and consistent enough to realize exactly what the conductor wants from them, and also to keep tuning and timing perfect so that everything hits in unison when it's meant to.

[rickyarbino]

I'd say that classical recordings that live through time are those that lend themselves to acoustics by way of the composition and arrangement.

#Discuss.