UK voter recall

[kay]

Yes, they could in a society that takes an active interest in the happenings and evolution of that society. Unfortunately people just aren't interested enough in the systems around them and how it affects their lives.

MPs are for the most part not particularly well-educated for the posts they hold. Therefore their single votes on various bits of legislation makes not much more sense than a popular vote. MPs vote bases on their personal beliefs, info their civil servants provide them and more often than not, the party line.

And again, they aren't the ones who enact any legislation. The civil servants do.

[scspkr99]

I know but we are talking about recalling them based on their voting not the civil servants implementation. Why should I favour voters recalling a politician for voting the way they said they would when they were elected?

They do vote ordinarily on party lines and I don't know why that line being consistent with their manifesto should result in a politician being recalled. I'm not being obtuse and I've said I'd like to see the detail around the proposals before forming a stronger opinion but recalling based on how they vote on controversial legislation could effectively result in a general election every time a controversial piece of legislation is raised whether successful or not.

[test_recordings]

Lol did you really read OP?

I am in favour of it myself because it would probably make politicians more likely to follow the wishes of the people that voted them in and keep their promises if they knew that they were under threat of being thrown out for not doing so. So, I emailed my local MP, Fabian Hamilton of Leeds NE (coincidentally the biggest expense fiddler of them all in the 2010 expenses scandal), and got this reply

[scspkr99]

Yes I did.

Here's a thought if you are trying to make a point and someone isn't getting it you can either make it clearer or berate the person for not getting it, one of these is likely to be productive one of these isn't.

What do you think that says. How do you think that answers my concerns. Have you stated anywhere what the criteria would be for a recall or instead have you posted some vague reference to breaking promises. Have you actually thought this through like.

How do you recall an opposition MP for breaking a promise when it won't be that members legislation that goes through parliament. How do you prevent a controversial private members bill being used as a trigger to recall whatever MP you want. Not all legislation introduced is a part of any manifesto so a politician voting on such legislation isn't breaking a promise made. If that legislation is controversial how do you recall an MP given that no one has lied or broke a promise.

If you want to advocate for something you should have a better idea of what it is you are advocating for otherwise it's just noise.

[test_recordings]

I know but we are talking about recalling them based on their voting not the civil servants implementation. Why should I favour voters recalling a politician for voting the way they said they would when they were elected?

I am in favour of it myself because it would probably make politicians more likely to follow the wishes of the people that voted them in and keep their promises if they knew that they were under threat of being thrown out for not doing so. So, I emailed my local MP, Fabian Hamilton of Leeds NE (coincidentally the biggest expense fiddler of them all in the 2010 expenses scandal), and got this reply

Okay sorry it just didn't look like you did because you seemed to be thinking the opposite of what I said.

Yes, I have thought about it and I think the notion is good and I understand that some people genuinely aren't interested but I myself think it would genuinely useful tool for giving people power to beneficially influence politics more. Of course every action causes other reactions but after politicians running on lies and empty promises as well as ignoring the general population on pretty much everything I want something implemented to change that and this looks perfect. Of course, there will be downsides to it but making politicians more considerate of the people they are supposed to serve outweighs things like new election campaigns having to happen before a general election etc.

Of course, the law might not be written perfectly the first time and the criteria may be too lenient and messy or too hard and so useless. However, we are able to adapt and change laws in a way that fit society so I'm not so bothered about the lengthiness of the process, just as long as there's engagement and progress.

I respect your opinion and I hope you yourself publicly engage with what's going on because I think society needs compromise and mutual understanding for people to live together.

The draft law is now out, please anyone interested for or against this get involved it's not like you get much chance to actually make a difference these days...

http://blog.38degrees.org.uk/2014/06/27 ... raft-bill/

My opinions in, I generally agreed with everything, though maybe five percent of constituents being to instigate a recall is possibly too low. Saying that, I'd rather it'd be too easy than too hard because then at least it gets to be used, it can be revised up after a few times of it being used if so.

[scspkr99]

Cheers I'll read the draft but the summary answers my questions, there are no triggers for a recall and so any MP can be recalled at any time. The process is pretty well defined, 5% of eligible voters need sign the notice of intent to recall, 20% need to sign the recall petition, then 50%+1 of those that do vote, vote to recall the MP. Then the seat is vacated and then the by-election called.

I'd like to know how this works where it works because it seems to could be used to target marginal seats especially where there are small majority governments. Opposition parties get to freeroll this process really.

I'm pretty cynical regarding politics though I think the gains made by electing a specific political party are kinda marginal and are more often the result of other factors such as the general economic climate. I think politics is broken and so should be sympathetic to this and other initiatives such as compulsory voting but I don't think it effects the kind of change that politics needs.

From the summary you linked.

But there are examples of MPs going to prison for taking a stand that has been welcomed by constituents (eg Terry Fields MP was jailed in 1991 for refusing to pay the Poll Tax).

I volunteered pretty much full time to Terry Fields election campaign when he was elected in 87, he was expelled from the labour party in 91 being replaced by it's preferred candidate Jane Kennedy against the wishes of the local party.

[test_recordings]

Yeah I don't think those are definitely going to be the actual rules, they were just made by a lawyer as a feasible proposal for both people and MPs to look at. I was personally a bit surprised that people can just go for a recall and then everyone votes on it but then it removes the tricky issue of deciding whether criteria has been met etc it puts the power in the hands of the people which is nice.

Why don't you think it will effect change in a good way though? I think it will to make MPs accountable for their promises and stuff. The jail thing is here nor there with those proposed rules, I don't think politicians should be automatically excluded from office just for having any old criminal record anyway (like Terry Fields increased his appeal probably).

[scspkr99]

I agree it's better to make the criteria by which a recall can happen as clear as possible. It's much better to have a transparent system, as proposed, than one requiring some qualification, voting on controversial issues or keeping a promise which is too vague. It remains open to abuse despite the qualification, MP's in marginal seats will be at risk during unpopular periods of government and I don't know that we want to be able to use this to trigger changes in government. On going to war I'm in favour of it being taken on consensus and mandates being withdrawn from governments that would go to war.

I'm okay with prison or some wrongdoing triggering fwiw, even in cases where I'd support the MP, it's okay to recall Terry Fields in 1991 as long as he's able to stand he'd have won because the community was largely behind him. Electing MP's who've found themselves of the wrong side of the law dates back to John Wilkes in the c18. I'm good with the electorate deciding in these cases.

Politics seems broken in pretty fundamental ways and I have no idea whatsoever of how it can look much better than it does. It's a game played out for a largely disinterested gallery, one that often overstates it's importance, underplays it's constraints and is inherently untruthful. Often, even when politicians are sincere they are wrong but politics has to done with a certainty it can't justify.

Politics is largely caught in a catch 22, for it to be successful it has to engage with as many people as possible but a measure of it's success may be how few people have to engage with it. Our general happiness, including for the least advantaged, should be sufficient that we don't have to care. I get that we are a long long way from being there but I don't see how politics is getting us any closer.

[test_recordings]

What do you think about making politicians come to us to ask us about what we want instead of us having to go to them all the time?

[scspkr99]

Generally I think once every 5 years is enough.

[test_recordings]

Yeah but things change, as do politicians' goals. It's not like we're China with a five year plan that gets implemented or people get executed, you know? Ours just do otherwise

[scspkr99]

I don't think we elect people to carry out manifesto promises we elect governments to govern, I don't know having more general elections makes it better

[test_recordings]

How do you choose who to vote for then? A large amount of the people that vote do so on the manifesto. That's why UKIP was popular with ex Conservative voters, they wanted an EU referendum. Most people voting for UKIP now obviously aren't in it for the manifesto because they ditched it before the EU elections so I appreciate there's more than one way to make a decision though...