should muslims wher the vale?

[alex bk-bk]

The whole veil issue is not worth getting worked up about anyway.

unless you're part of the minority of veil wearers that's suddenly found itself even less welcome in this country. then i can see it being kind of irritating....

[masstronaut]

The whole veil issue is not worth getting worked up about anyway.

unless you're part of the minority of veil wearers that's suddenly found itself even less welcome in this country. then i can see it being kind of irritating....

True dat. I mean it would be better if no-one had got worked up about it in the foist place!

[elgato]

The whole veil issue is not worth getting worked up about anyway.

are you joking?! alex has said all that needs to be said to that

I just mean that with all this talk of pragmatism and cultural relativism we need to remember that there might be some absolutes we can agree on and that there are some people who would like to see those rights removed.

what do you mean by this?

Ideas must always be open to criticism. End of.

that wink has no place there

ideas must be open to discussion, and rational criticism within that discussion. nowhere do you see me saying we shouldnt have the right to freedom of expression, and therefore to criticise. im talking about whether its appropriate to exercise that right.

what has been going down has not been rational criticism within an open and fair arena (which i believe to be the appropriate way to exercise our freedom to express), its been hype, 'outrage' and pressure, pressure exerted on an already ostracized and alienated community, mostly by a reactionary and ignorant media and public. i dont see that as the appropriate way to act. im not saying people shouldnt have the right to do so, just that its stupid to do so, provided that we agree that we want an integrated nation (and world), and that we do not wish to exacerbate the rapidly intensifying friction between the west and islam

[masstronaut]

The whole veil issue is not worth getting worked up about anyway.

are you joking?! alex has said all that needs to be said to that

I was basically agreeing with you there. As discussed endlessly on this thread already, if someone wants to wear a veil then fine! I was referring to media muck stirring as much as anything.

[masstronaut]

Ideas must always be open to criticism. End of.

that wink has no place there

I know the 'wink' has no place there! I'm mocking my own turn of phrase.

"End of." means end of discussion. Do you see the irony? Do I have spell it out?

[masstronaut]

I just mean that with all this talk of pragmatism and cultural relativism we need to remember that there might be some absolutes we can agree on and that there are some people who would like to see those rights removed.

what do you mean by this?

I think it's very clear.

When dealing with conflicting cultures you need to find some common ground. I would say that 'freedom of expression' might be a good place to start.

There are politicians, power-mongers, religious types and nutters of many stripes who would like to curtail that right, for whatever reason.

We are already looking at legislation that attempts to limit the criticism of some ideas, and legislation intended to prevent the expression of other ideas! It's nuts, and a slippery slope.

I agree that the press should excercise more restraint. That's the British press, they lav a bit of it, if it sells. And often they are serving a political agenda.

Anyway, I hope this discussion is all in good spirits. It's easy for meanings to be misconstrued on internet forums but I think a lot of us here basically agree on the issues.

Poax had it right back on page 1 : MINEFIELD.

[doomstep]

if a woman wears it by choice, shes a walking advert for acceptance of this kind of treatment. its like a woman walking round with a chain and shackles on her ankles! if you cant see it like that, read up

dont a fair number of western women, by choice, wear the modern equivelant of these chains n shackles? or at least the fashionable form of feet binding.

[elgato]

I know the 'wink' has no place there! I'm mocking my own turn of phrase.

"End of." means end of discussion. Do you see the irony? Do I have spell it out?

i do indeed see it, i misconstrued the irony for stupidity. its not rare to hear such contradictions in ppl's words

[elgato]

I think it's very clear.

When dealing with conflicting cultures you need to find some common ground. I would say that 'freedom of expression' might be a good place to start.

There are politicians, power-mongers, religious types and nutters of many stripes who would like to curtail that right, for whatever reason.

We are already looking at legislation that attempts to limit the criticism of some ideas, and legislation intended to prevent the expression of other ideas! It's nuts, and a slippery slope.

I agree that the press should excercise more restraint. That's the British press, they lav a bit of it, if it sells. And often they are serving a political agenda.

i understand. you should have been more clear in your original statement, it sounded very much like a wooly way to try to justify the enforcement of taking off the veil. but now i see

Anyway, I hope this discussion is all in good spirits. It's easy for meanings to be misconstrued on internet forums but I think a lot of us here basically agree on the issues.

meanings are indeed easily misconstrued. but while i do discuss this in good spirit, i do so very very seriously, because its not just something to chat about to pass the time, its incredibly important. and i do get very very heated when i hear people making what i perceive to be ignorant comments, because of the damage that i think these people can so easily do

[masstronaut]

i understand. you should have been more clear in your original statement, it sounded very much like a wooly way to try to justify the enforcement of taking off the veil. but now i see

Goodness! Well that couldn't have been further from my meaning. I'm sorry if that's the kind of attitude you expect from people.

I just mean that with all this talk of pragmatism and cultural relativism we need to remember that there might be some absolutes we can agree on and that there are some people who would like to see those rights removed.

What absolutes did you think I meant? The right not to have to look at women wearing veils?

Peace.

[elgato]

i think the confusion stemmed from the fact that you quoted me saying something to begin your post, which set it up in my mind that you were refuting what i was saying, so the way i read your statement was defined by that start point, if you see what i mean

this is how i read it...

the absolutes you referred to were rights to freedom from oppression, on behalf of muslim women who are forced to wear the veils. therefore the people who wished to remove those rights (in your statement) were the oppressive muslims, and therefore i read your statement as a call for pressure to be exerted on the muslim community to cast aside the tradition

crossed wires basically!

[wobbles]

I agree the cat, good points about veils, but ur a fucking bellend