promoting and selling music in the 21st century

[parson]

wicked thread here

[b&w]

But then again maybe not, as I already posted a similiar question b4 and no one gave a fuck.

Judging from this quote your post amounted to a big ol bunch of sour grapes.

ThinKing, if you came across a CD full of MP3s lying on the seat next to you on the bus or "tube' or whatever it is you people ride over there, would you smash it to pieces on principle and never rip any of them onto your computer, or would you check them out and if you were feeling the music go out and purchase something by the artist(s)?

All I'm illustrating is that there is a slippery slope here, and if you're going to comdemn all file sharering militantly, you're essentially condemning the majority of people posting on this forum.

[seckle]

you're still using pro-P2P theories from the major label release/major label mindset. those theories are absolutely irrelevant to the dubstep scene.

every single music conglomerate in the business today is factoring in mp3 losses into every production or multi album record deal. so for example ; take your token indie rock band that's today signing their first major label record deal. They're shouldering all of the P2P damage from all the releases on that record label. major labels do this so that they can offset the damage caused by p2p, and still manage to allocate resources to put cd's into production and make music videos, promotion, etc.

i used to work for a music conglomerate. a 3 album major label record deal in 1999 could potentially be over $2 million dollars. Signing today , directly due to filesharing and the damage it's caused, the same 3 album major label deal would be probably $750 to $900k. that's the result of a decade of napsterizing.

now apply that same kind of p2p loss example to a much smaller scene like ours, and you can see how hard and brutal it is. our scene is so small in comparison to other genres that every single P2P loss is a massive blow to the potential of a record label. none of the record labels have promotional staff, street teams and networks to facilitate releases. it's all grassroots and the internet. why do you think there are so many dubstep mixes for free? because this is OUR promotional system. it works, and people that poach albums on P2P are basically putting up a big middle finger to our whole scene.

you say you're a producer. have you ever tried to cut a 12"? have you ever tried to argue with a distributor to get your release scheduled in a reasonable timeframe? how about trying to register your publishing? i highly doubt you've ever experienced any part of that process, because you sure as hell wouldn't be speaking the way you have about filesharing.

we can sit here and argue about the future of music distribution until we're all blue in the face. the fact of the matter is, that dubstep isn't built around people trying to make loads of money on their music. the majority of people do this for the love of the sound so by hindering that process you're fooling around with people's livelyhood.

[John Locke]

i can now c why u have succeeded in winding so many people up over the course of this thread. U have used a self-effacing comment that was said as part joke 2 dismiss my entire (long) post out of hand. There r no sourgrapes B&W, i was being flippant.

u r like a worm that wriggles. arguing in this way (without any rationale but just looking to score cheap points) may seem satisfying, but ultimately u have neither won or learnt anything, much less convinced anyone of yr point of view...

...above all u just come accross as a fucking clown. I dont expect u got many friends

goodbye

[b&w]

you're still using pro-P2P theories from the major label release/major label mindset. those theories are absolutely irrelevant to the dubstep scene..

Seckle, read the question above that I posed to ThinKing regarding randomly finding a CD full of MP3s somewhere. We are tackling this issue on all levels, from the practical to the philosophical.

BTW, your example of shrinking big label budgets neglects to take into consideration the reduction in costs related to the manufacture of physical product.

I have seen all sides of the music industry for the better part of 2 decades. I have been in bands, signed production deals, written, recorded, produced, promoted, markerted, distributed my own music. I started a record label in 1999 that folded 5 years later. It's a tough business.

A very small percentage of people make a living making music. This has been true for ages, and is not directly related to file sharing.

[John Locke]

we just got 2 accept that we cant make money out of sales anymore (even if theoretically we should have the right to do this). Obviously playing live/Djing is the alternative.

that's a terrible alternative - the lack of viable profit margins and swells in DJ fees is half the reason we have so many shit DJs on the circuit in various scenes (DnB for example). Producers put all the hard work in, buy kit, learn their trade, then labels put the music out for not much profit or respect, then DJs earn £100s per hour to play those records. Fair?

Plenty of producers felt compelled to learn to DJ, just to make a living from their music. This takes time & energy away from being able to write music, damages their ears....trust me I know a few well-known producer/DJs who would much prefer just sticking to production, but it's just not possible these days.

who am i 2 say u dont have the right to enjoy music?

but who are you (or anyone else) to say that one person's right to enjoy music should outweigh the right of the artist to do as THEY see fit with it?

Off the top of my head, I could name 2 or 3 artists who've had terrible sales, or even had to cancel the release of albums, due to leaks onto P2P. If this continues, and if people have to abandon their art in favour of performance just to earn a living, we'll eventually lose the amazing music of those artists who will become constrained by the reality of the business model you're proposing.

ThinKing, u seem 2 hve misunderstood my stance.

A> I'm in total agreement that this situation sucks. i personally quit DJing yrs ago and have zero interest in playing live. its not for me. i wld love 2 b able 2 sit in the studio, and sell my (and others' on the label) music and live on that alone, like was once possible. But it cant b done anymore. I aint happy about this. I dont think this is fair. but I dont think pretending the situation is otherwise is going to change anything. I accept the fact I will either have to find alternative ways of making cash or remain broke.

B> Agreed, I have no right to tell an artist what to do with their music. I didnt suggest otherwise. In act, if u read my post properly u'll see I give an example of someone who is upset about this and i'm totally sympathetic. I really dont think u read my post at all carefully. I'm not taking a clear black or white position on this subject cos it just isnt like that (life rarely is). But while I would love the situation to be different I'm perhaps more accepting of certain realities. This is just how things r, and as much as i dislike it too we got to deal with it.

And as much as B&W seems like a complete twat, not everything he says is completely wrong.

Quite a lot of it though, admittedly.

[seckle]

finding cd's on a bus is a silly example of what your trying to argue. you can keep playing devil's advocate in this discussion but you're going to find that the ice you're standing on is going to get thinner and thinner.

[pk-]

the 21st century is an incredibly exciting time for people who want to get their music heard by a potential audience of millions

it's pretty shit for people who want to make money from it, though.

depends what you're after i suppose

[John Locke]

the 21st century is an incredibly exciting time for people who want to get their music heard by a potential audience of millions

it's pretty shit for people who want to make money from it

couldnt b put clearer. thats the deal.

we got to use this 2 our advantage in some way, not pretend we can change it. adapt and survive.

[b&w]

finding cd's on a bus is a silly example of what you're trying to argue. you can keep playing devil's advocate in this discussion but you're going to find that the ice you're standing on is going to get thinner and thinner.

Humor me and tell me what you would do with the CD.

And yes, like Wiley, I may be treadin' on thin ice, but I'm surviving and, yes, I am a big fan of playing devil's advocate as it is a position that I believe promotes healthy dialogue...

Big ups to all of you for engaging in this debate/discussion.

[Jennifer]

wow, this is still going!

[thinking]

ThinKing, u seem 2 hve misunderstood my stance.

not at all man, we're reading from the same hymnsheet. Unfortunately, i have no answers to the questions we're discussing.

I was simply trying to point out how unhappy I am with the idea that only DJs/performers can maje money these days. It makes a mockery of the music scene - producers have to DJ to make ends meet, which means more shit DJs, and professional DJs i.e. those who try to make art out of their DJing get pushed out because they haven't made a hit record.



I wish I could find a third way, but I can't.

[thinking]

Humor me and tell me what you would do with the CD.

no, because yet again you're making outlandish analogies that have exactly zero relevance. To humour you for a second and shoot your 'argument' out of the water, I could have found a CD of MP3s which happened to be copies made legally under the 'fair use' of international copyright laws.


Now stop trying to find theoretical loopholes which don't exist.

[b&w]

no, because yet again you're making outlandish analogies that have exactly zero relevance. To humour you for a second and shoot your 'argument' out of the water, I could have found a CD of MP3s which happened to be copies made legally under the 'fair use' of international copyright laws.


Now stop trying to find theoretical loopholes which don't exist.

That answer is a cop out and you know it. If you are claiming to take the ethical high road I want to know what you would do with a found CD containing MP3s. Be honest here. The issue we are discussing is complex and the "devil is in the details" so to speak, so let's have it.

[LEQ]

You don't work for the RIAA by any chance do you..........?

[b&w]

You don't work for the RIAA by any chance do you..........?

LOL!!!

[LEQ]

You don't work for the RIAA by any chance do you..........?

LOL!!!

He does have a lighter side..

[rogue star]

I was prepared to cut u off at every turn, with your half-arse excuses for what is blatently detrimental to the scene, but instead i shall leave u to your narcissistic ways

may peace be with you

[b&w]

I was prepared to cut u off at every turn, with your half-arse excuses for what is blatently detrimental to the scene, but instead i shall leave u to your narcissistic ways

may peace be with you

pointless and meaningless post. thanks for nothing!

[thinking]

no, because yet again you're making outlandish analogies that have exactly zero relevance. To humour you for a second and shoot your 'argument' out of the water, I could have found a CD of MP3s which happened to be copies made legally under the 'fair use' of international copyright laws.


Now stop trying to find theoretical loopholes which don't exist.

That answer is a cop out and you know it. If you are claiming to take the ethical high road I want to know what you would do with a found CD containing MP3s. Be honest here. The issue we are discussing is complex and the "devil is in the details" so to speak, so let's have it.

to my mind it's still irrelevant. In all honesty if I found a CD of mp3s and I really liked them, I would do my utmost to track down the music on vinyl. I hardly listen to CDs or MP3s at all apart from on my computer, and it's entirely stuff I'm sent or the odd mix. Everything I listen to when I'm chilling at home is on vinyl, or the odd CD from the few that my flatmate or I have bought over the years - unfortunately my only CD player is on a Multitrack HD recorder so listening to CDs is a pain in the arse.


But as I say, imo that's irrelevant because you don't just 'happen across' tunes that you didn't pay for/shouldn't have - downloading is not a passive activity.